layton Posted September 3, 2002 Share Posted September 3, 2002 Anyone ever done this? I was thinkin' of being an indept guide for folks who wanna climb, or go hiking. There's the big competition (AAI,AAI,Mtn Maddness, etc...) but I don't know of anyone who has their own (except for big names like Steve House, Barry Blanchard, etc...). I was thinkin'. I'm sure I'll be sued,railroaded,and blackliste by the big wigs. What should I do to start? Obviously have ideas, just searchin' for feedback. Plus do you think it'll work? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iain Posted September 3, 2002 Share Posted September 3, 2002 If you became AMGA certified in all 3 disciplines and were approved as an IFMGA guide, that would be a good way to demonstrate your abilities beyond what most guides in AAI, AAI, Mtn Madness, etc could offer. House, for instance, is one such guide. Then again, AMGA certification doesn't seem to mean squat on places like Rainier, Hood, Denali, etc where IFMGA guides would probably be deported for guiding there while your standard RMI dude can guide all he/she likes, w/ no quantitative qualification through recognized training and certification  Plus AMGA certification is very expensive, basically a college degree. Good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
layton Posted September 3, 2002 Author Share Posted September 3, 2002 I'm just doing this to get some work for the next year and summer. I don't plan on getting any guide certifications. I am WFR certified. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erik Posted September 3, 2002 Share Posted September 3, 2002 mike, Â there is nothing stopping you, expect you... Â the thing is if you are offering formal training or instruction, and reciveving money for this, then you will be a business and open for much liability. the state will want a part of your earnings.... Â i would say if you guided routes with qaulified people and receicve financial gifts, then you would be okay.... Â the thing is, is selling yourself to potential clients. the money with guiding is return cumtomers...obviousy you are not soo interested in this, as it appears to be a temp deal.... Â if you can find people to pay you to take them climbing, then go for it....but remember you might be an expert, but your clients are not...you need to treat them as equals and not some belay bunny....explain to them your thoughts and actions and let them feel like they are part of them team. do not bad mouth them or make them feel inferior as it will deteriate the partnership/relationship deal....and prolly cut into your tip.....i think this is where most guides mess up...i have found that most guides have a suporiority complex and it reflects on theur treatment of their clients(this is personal opinion gathered from things i have seen from observiong guides, if you are a guide and feel you need to attack me on this point, take note i do not care!!! this is just an observation!!!) Â good luck mang! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
layton Posted September 3, 2002 Author Share Posted September 3, 2002 I agree with you Erik. I'm not looking to be paid to go climbing. I've guided with the outdoor center at Western, and I've made it my TOP priority to be SAFE and help the customer have FUN. I'm out there because they are paying to either learn a new skill, or have a fantastic experience. Â I bet there are folks out there that want to go hiking or backpacking and don't know where to go, or climbing and don't want to pay big bucks. I can't afford to insure or set up my own business. It would be 'financial gifts.' Any warnings on this, would I setting myself up for disaster? Â If not, how should I go about advertising w/o drawing attention to the fact that I'm 1.)not guide certified 2.)uninsured 3.)not a "real" business. I was thinkin' a flyer at school, a post on the newbies forum. I don't know how to set up a web page, and I'm not sure if that's such a good idea. I was thinking of business cards or flyers at other places, but where and who would let me is another thing. Â Basically I've never done this, and not sure I am. As I said, I'm neverous about marketing myself and not sure how to go about it. Â Please respond if you have any thoughts on this, things that could go wrong, things that could go right... Thanks, Mike Layton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erik Posted September 3, 2002 Share Posted September 3, 2002 mike dat saounds like a goodf plan.. Â dont worry about being not certified..most of the guides out there are not certified either....the companies might have one or two amga or better certifired guides, but mst of the cronies are just kids out there working...... Â yeah i have heard about your oc trips(hehehe) Â advertise on the local boards like you said at skool and at basecamp....who cares of they tear it down, just put up another one...all they can ask you to do is stop.... Â hopefully you will give the competition a run for the money...post at rei too..... Â word of mouth is a good way to do it too..... Â just when you are out there..make sure you do not tell people that you are guiding...specially the tool... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt.Caveman Posted September 3, 2002 Share Posted September 3, 2002 if you are a guide and feel you need to attack me on this point, take note i do not care!!! this is just an observation!!!) Â Â Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodchester Posted September 3, 2002 Share Posted September 3, 2002 Mike: Â The biggest problem you will have is getting the license/permit to operate on public land. Each Land managment entity is different and has very different/qualifications to guide. (having insurance and certain types of training are required). The Nat. Park system (US) is nearly impossible to get into. Â You can do it and make a living. However, you will find the US hard to actually make it happen (red tape) and South America is the easiest to guide in. Â Many well known climbers do it, and even less known climbers that have guided for the normal companies build up a client base and guide them privately. Â Under the table guiding is very common, but it is hard for many reasons. Â I do have some expeience in this area, so feel free to send me a PM with specific questions. Love to help you out. Â Also I pretty much agree with Eric's statements on this issue. Â Good Luck!!! Â Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krazy_1 Posted September 3, 2002 Share Posted September 3, 2002 hey i too agree with erik... the only thing holding you back is yourself. Â there are so many peeps out there that would love to explore the outdoors and get to the hills but lack a few skills and confidence. i think there are many things that one could teach without going totally gughoe extreme, stay low key to start and work your way up as you gain confidence in teaching/leading. Â good luck - and check your pm's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fern Posted September 3, 2002 Share Posted September 3, 2002 just call yourself an AMGA 'aspirant' ... I've seen a few indy guide types use that spin to fake some 'official' credibility. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
payaso Posted September 3, 2002 Share Posted September 3, 2002 I think that being paid to climb is the big motivator for you, but guiding is no vacation. You are not "paid to climb" so much as you are paid to bring em back down alive while listening to them whine and complain about you. This will mean retreating off of routes. When you go up with your buddies and weather or health dictate that you come back another day, you just do it. If you have paid top dollar to "summit" something, the expectations are much higher, as though the summit of a mountain were a commodity to be purchased. You will have a very hard time convincing someone to pay you $ around here unless you are affiliated with a professional organization. I believe many of the guide services have "interns" who volunteer for seasons at a time until they have cut their teeth on a great number of trips. I know that the guide service up in McCarthy operates this way. On a short term basis you probably stand a better chance of working as a base camp cook cutting SPAM into moose and bear shapes for the clients. Heading out on your own could get tricky with all the gov regulations regarding concessions in the parks. Sometimes a concessionaire will have the sole contract to conduct all guided trips of any kind, whether they actually offer the service or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodchester Posted September 3, 2002 Share Posted September 3, 2002 "a) liability. those waivers you make your people sign don't hold up if it is you that screws up. Also, insurance ain't cheap but maybe you can get it for a per/client basis and tack it on to their fee. In short, you can't screw up." Â Actualy law suits are pretty rare in the industry and are often settled by insurance companies for "cost of defense." The law is defintely on the guide's side. The highest case in this state was an RMI case in which old Lou won...it was thrown out and never made it to trial..and it was sustained on appeal. There is also a CA case that had a similar result. Â I have done jury verdict searches and come up with none, that's right none. They just don't occur because America has what is called acceptance of risk in its legal system. That means the client accpets the risk and waives right to suit. Anyway...it is actually much more complicated, and I don't want to bore you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr_Flash_Amazing Posted September 3, 2002 Share Posted September 3, 2002 The Doctor had a friend a while back (those were the days ...) who had done some guiding, and this fellow was recounting stories of having to tie boot laces for people and make sure they were putting on sunscreen and lip balm and shit. Basically babysitting people who hadn't a clue about what they were doing up there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
troubleski Posted September 3, 2002 Share Posted September 3, 2002 Intresting reading if you are so inclined web page Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
troubleski Posted September 3, 2002 Share Posted September 3, 2002 ok.... lets try that again.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iain Posted September 3, 2002 Share Posted September 3, 2002 you've got an extra http: in there, but thanks for the link to free grocery coupons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
troubleski Posted September 3, 2002 Share Posted September 3, 2002 ok.... lets try that again.... Â ok... this time I really mean it..... Â cool reading Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cj001f Posted September 3, 2002 Share Posted September 3, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Rodchester: "a) Actualy law suits are pretty rare in the industry and are often settled by insurance companies for "cost of defense." The law is defintely on the guide's side. The highest case in this state was an RMI case in which old Lou won...it was thrown out and never made it to trial..and it was sustained on appeal. There is also a CA case that had a similar result. You are generally correct Rodchester, however there are changes potentially coming to the guiding world (as the above linked Outside magazine article summarizes nicely) And never underestimate the will of well back "wronged parties" http://www.ourayiceclimbing.com/lawsuit.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krazy_1 Posted September 3, 2002 Share Posted September 3, 2002 quote: The Doctor had a friend a while back (those were the days ...) who had done some guiding, and this fellow was recounting stories of having to tie boot laces for people and make sure they were putting on sunscreen and lip balm and shit. Basically babysitting people who hadn't a clue about what they were doing up there. Â Isn't that what you want to get paid for? teaching some people some skills so they will either take up the sport and quit complaining or get the hell off the mountain and make room for others. I'm all in favor of education.......all those that go out there and get lost, hurt or die seem to be the majority of those that don't know anything, so teachem a little something and make acouple dollars as well as maybe some new friends. just think what would have happened if someone didn't teach you/us a few things?........ hummmm i'm begining to sound like my mom - sup wit dat? Â [ 09-03-2002, 03:44 PM: Message edited by: krazy 1 ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
layton Posted September 3, 2002 Author Share Posted September 3, 2002 It seems I was misquoted regarding being paid to climb. I completely understand that this is not the case. Keep it coming, this is very very interesting and informative. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
layton Posted September 3, 2002 Author Share Posted September 3, 2002 It seems I was misquoted regarding being paid to climb. I completely understand that this is not the case. Keep it coming, this is very very interesting and informative. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dwayner Posted September 4, 2002 Share Posted September 4, 2002 "Actualy law suits are pretty rare in the industry and are often settled by insurance companies for "cost of defense." The law is defintely on the guide's side. The highest case in this state was an RMI case in which old Lou won...it was thrown out and never made it to trial..and it was sustained on appeal. There is also a CA case that had a similar result. Â I have done jury verdict searches and come up with none, that's right none. They just don't occur because America has what is called acceptance of risk in its legal system. That means the client accpets the risk and waives right to suit." Â I would slightly disagree...acceptance of risk doesn't incorporate the notion of professional negligence. Check out the lawsuits in river rafting, Outward Bound type courses, etc. Someone already mentioned the Colorado ice-climbing thing. Even if you win a law suit, it's still going to damage your pocketbook, your reputation and it's going to make you really nervous until it's resolved. In short, it's a business in which you can't screw up and have it noticed. Besides, the client isn't paying to trust his life to a dangerous wanker. Â In the case of Big Lou....his partner for decades has been a smart Tacoma lawyer, Jerry Lynch, who can put up a fine defense. Â And doing the under the table stuff...the state will jump on you for de facto running a business without the paperwork. And if one of your cash clients decides he doesn't like you, a few phone calls will make your life miserable. So handing out fliers and stuff might not be the way to go. If you think you're up for it...get a business license, maybe establish a relationship with a local shop, and do it low-key but correctly. One company I worked for had a nice display in a local shop with a sign-up sheet for further information. I called the prospective clients on the sheet and enthusiastically convinced them that they needed a climbing course...it worked well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Letko_Andropoff Posted September 4, 2002 Share Posted September 4, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Rodchester: [QB Actualy law suits are pretty rare in the industry and are often settled by insurance companies for "cost of defense."  I have done jury verdict searches and come up with none, that's right none. [/QB] None? Review the summary in the $500,000 judgment for Death under "Personal Injury" in:  www.luveralawfirm.com/verdicts/index.html  All you need in America are good facts, good experts and good lawyers. (and don't waste my time distinguishing between professional guides and schools in this context.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freeclimb9 Posted September 4, 2002 Share Posted September 4, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Letko Andropoff: All you need in America are good facts, good experts and good lawyers. dude, OJ only needed the "good" lawyers and experts to overcome the facts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freeclimb9 Posted September 4, 2002 Share Posted September 4, 2002 You don't have to deal with a license-happy state. Utah has liberal laws regarding "guides" (that's why there's so many wilderness rehabilitation businesses run in this state). All you need to operate as a "guide" in Utah is to get a business license ($25 at the DMV). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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