scott_harpell Posted September 30, 2004 Share Posted September 30, 2004 For instance, Castle Rock (11worth) is fully topropable. All you need is a 400 ft. Rockfall... what happens if the rope gets stuck in a crack 200 feet off the deck... ect Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott_harpell Posted September 30, 2004 Share Posted September 30, 2004 Because bolting isn't black and white... its appropriateness varies situation to situation. Most people feel a 6 bolt anchor is to much. Bolts are okay if you can?t naturally protect the route. Done. What about TRable routes? See? It is not so simple. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
backcountrydog Posted September 30, 2004 Share Posted September 30, 2004 leading sport climbs is fun. people dont want to be told they Have to lead a sport climb, or they can't bolt a face simply because it would be possible to set up a tr on it. and at a crag, they shouldnt be. bolted climbs have been coexisting with crack climbs at crags all over the world for years. whether or not you want to understand that bolted face climbing is a part of climbing history, as are bolts...is up to you. sport climbing took off because all kinds of climbers like it, not just sport climbers. there are lots of places you shouldnt place a bolt. but thats no reason to ban all bolt protected face climbing. not that you could... cragging is fun. btw this the best bolt discussion i have read yet on this site. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott_harpell Posted September 30, 2004 Share Posted September 30, 2004 Why shouldn't you place bolts in some places, but not in others? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobBob Posted September 30, 2004 Share Posted September 30, 2004 Since the most outspoken folks on one side of this issue have been banned for expressing their opinions, this thread is like the sound of one hand clapping. Milquetoast. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted September 30, 2004 Share Posted September 30, 2004 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
backcountrydog Posted September 30, 2004 Share Posted September 30, 2004 scott since we are talking about cragging, i said 'lots of places you shouldnt place a bolt' in regards to cracks, even if it is a crag. or retrobolting w/out the 1st ascntst permission, etc... the extremes on either end of the topic dont really fit into todays crag climbing picture. a 'bolt it all' attitude or a 'no bolts in climbing' attitude arent very practicle. UNLESS your talking about an exit 38 type area (necessary evil) or at crags w a no bolt ethic (england somewhere?). somewhere inbetween is where the pendulum will rest. just because dwayner or whoever isnt here to say "NO BOLTS AT ALL" inbetween every thread, does that mean there is no discussion? that doesnt appear to be the case. what i see is 7 pgs of bolting discussion that hasnt been moved to spray and people are voicing there opinions almost as if we were all adults or something... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stefan Posted September 30, 2004 Share Posted September 30, 2004 Powerdrilling in wilderness is bad? I think so. What about standard bolting in wilderness areas only? I advocate for the standard use of trails, but I don't advocate for the use of bolts in wilderness areas. I find my own stance hypocritical. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobBob Posted September 30, 2004 Share Posted September 30, 2004 what i see is 7 pgs of bolting discussion that hasnt been moved to spray and people are voicing there opinions almost as if we were all adults or something... = boring say what you want, if you silence a significant number of the debaters, you've got a pretty weak debate left over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter_Puget Posted September 30, 2004 Share Posted September 30, 2004 I haven’t read all the posts on this thread but since Castle Rock has been mentioned, I thought I’d bring up Monkey Lip. This is a really fun route. All of the difficult climbing is protected by fixed pins. These pins 15 years ago were complete junk. Now they are certainly even worse. Why not replace these fps with nice SS bolts and have a safe route that will last 30+ years. Some thoughts: 1 Proper bolting will have no more of a visual impact than the existing pins. 2 SS bolts will be strong for a very long time – something that is untrue of pins. (If I remember correctly the pins are KB and Bugs) 3 I in the future clean protection is invented that can be used the bolts can be pulled the holes sealed over and the route is restored. If pins keep being replaced every 5-10 years scars will form. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottP Posted September 30, 2004 Share Posted September 30, 2004 Some thoughts: (snip) 3 ...If pins keep being replaced every 5-10 years scars will form. Makes for nice fingerlocks though... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Posted September 30, 2004 Share Posted September 30, 2004 if you silence a significant number of the debaters, you've got a pretty weak debate left over. and you define significant number as what, 2? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott_harpell Posted September 30, 2004 Share Posted September 30, 2004 Well, that is 66.67% of the people who share my position...or should I say position(s)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arlen Posted September 30, 2004 Share Posted September 30, 2004 UNLESS your talking about an exit 38 type area (necessary evil) or at crags w a no bolt ethic (england somewhere?). somewhere inbetween is where the pendulum will rest. Many areas east of, well, the West, have very strong and very modern no-bolting ethics, even in places where apparently fun routes could go up with a couple bolts. There's no "natural" point of equilibrium between grid bolting and trad only--more like a consensus that survives if it fits. If people didn't talk about it, there wouldn't be an ethic for or against any style. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bogen Posted September 30, 2004 Share Posted September 30, 2004 So... are you saying that because you don't like or understand this form of climbing, no one should be able to do it? Did you have a bad experience as a child? Please explain this unreasonable prejudice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
backcountrydog Posted September 30, 2004 Share Posted September 30, 2004 arlen, im not sure what your point is. there ARE crags w a no bolt policy. thats great! i think that there should be. im not sure why you state this... i never said that there was a 'natural' point of equilibrium, but rather "the pendulum WILL rest somewhere inbetween. a consensus that survives if it fits kinda sounds like the same thing to me. and people talking about ethics is a good thing, i agree with you... however i think theres a big difference between a crag that has some sport rts and a grid bolted wall. just like calling a sport rt a bolt ladder isnt exactly accurate by most climbers definition, imo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted September 30, 2004 Share Posted September 30, 2004 backcountry dog...you are spot on... that was my whole point in bringing up the european sport climbing venues...ie, I'd like to see Mr. Harpell hangdog those routes...it just doesn't happen unless you're in the mind set of multiple 50 footers or bigger...hardly what i'd call grid bolted even if they are "sport" routes... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott_harpell Posted September 30, 2004 Share Posted September 30, 2004 This is not Europe. The prescendence has been set at ex. 38... these are the most vsited crags around here and most people's introductions to climbing. New climbers will then assume that this is how it should be and have taht as a frame of reference. I am not oppsed to sport routes in theory, I am most afraid of where it is going. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Posted September 30, 2004 Share Posted September 30, 2004 Where it seems to be going is very pedestrian. A ground up ethic is virtually gone, and the idea of any risk is fading. I know. There are dudes out there, like Potter, that are still pushing it. But (IMO) places laid Vantage and 38 are little more than outside gyms. It's still climbing of sorts, but a very controlled environment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted September 30, 2004 Share Posted September 30, 2004 This is not Europe. The prescendence has been set at ex. 38... these are the most vsited crags around here and most people's introductions to climbing. New climbers will then assume that this is how it should be and have taht as a frame of reference. I am not oppsed to sport routes in theory, I am most afraid of where it is going. i hate 38...but, hey, it serves a purpose... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott_harpell Posted September 30, 2004 Share Posted September 30, 2004 So does VW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bogen Posted September 30, 2004 Share Posted September 30, 2004 New climbers will then assume that this is how it should be and have taht as a frame of reference. Even for those that do nothing but sport climbing, and never expand their frame of reference, so what? It is a perfectly acceptable form of recreation. Perhaps you are (justifiably) worried about these narrow-minded individuals carrying their sport ethic into the back-country. I would agree that is something we have to guard against. But to use that as an arguement against rap-bolted sport climbs in general makes no sense to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott_harpell Posted September 30, 2004 Share Posted September 30, 2004 I don't give a shit if they sport climb for the rest of their lives, but if they see ex. 38 as a reference point... then they will assume that is what is proper... it will sway the 'equilibrium'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bogen Posted September 30, 2004 Share Posted September 30, 2004 What "equilibrium?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott_harpell Posted September 30, 2004 Share Posted September 30, 2004 It was mentioned earlier... the bolt free vs. the grid bolted crags/walls. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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