Poll: Would you rat on a Wilderness Power Driller?

[iain]

However, I will say I believe some backcountry horsemen will use a chainsaw...if nobody knows about it.

That seems to be the running way to do things out there. For instance, it seems next to impossible to bust someone for using webbing to rap off a wilderness route.

[Lambone]

That's a good point about the wording of the Poll Merv, beause of course we're talking about individuals. It was a long time ago that I lost the simple notion that membership in any subculture automatically makes one an okay person.

 

 

I suppose I should have put a bit morethought into the wording...

 

My goal was not to start a huge debate. The article about the guy who got busted got me thinking....the FS guy said alot of their knowlege comes from tip offs, and I was wondering how many climbers would turn in someone breaking this law.

 

You can pull the...would you rat on guy smoking pot, or wife speeding thing....but that is not the issue here. The issue is climbers breaking the law and potentialy effecting our access and freedoms as a result.

 

I agree with Merv. Some people like Lummox, think rating somebody out is a "fag" thing to do regardless of the reason or circumstance. I disagree...there are climbers out there doing bad things...I don't feel obliged to support them just because they climb.

[Cpt.Caveman]

I agree with Merv. Some people like Lummox, think rating somebody out is a "fag" thing to do regardless of the reason or circumstance. I disagree...there are climbers out there doing bad things...I don't feel obliged to support them just because they climb.

 

well put

[Off_White]

What's the bigger threat to access and freedoms, somebody using a power drill in a wilderness area or someone getting the authorities involved and inflamed about it? I don't think bringing the cops in to assuage one's moral outrage is a great plan.

 

Speeding and pot smoking are every bit as against the law as power drilling in the wilderness, so if you want to make an issue about "obeying the law" then why are those examples out of the equation?

 

If the issue is affecting access, and assuming that part of the problem is population pressure from more and more participants, then which is worse: being busted for power drilling in a wilderness, or running a school that adds hundreds of new people to the sport every year? Selling your image to an advertising company that uses it on national television?

[MervGriffin]

Speeding and pot smoking are every bit as against the law as power drilling in the wilderness, so if you want to make an issue about "obeying the law" then why are those examples out of the equation?

 

When your car slows down, and when that joint is nothing more than a pile of residual ashes and a fleeting buzz, it's done with. With drilling, by hand or by machine, you've left a permanent mark that others will continue to encounter in perpetuity unless extraordinary means are taken to restore the damage.

[chucK]

At what point does it become worthwhile to involve the government, Federal government especially? Myself, I would think LAST RESORT!

 

Purposefully involving the Federal Government to take care of something that will only be a problem if the Federal Government gets involved seems quite circular in an absurd way.

 

I think Lammy's argument is that these illegal drillers will endanger all of our access once the Federal Govt. gets invovled. I'll buy that.

 

However, when he implies the solution to this is to get the Federal Govt. involved my head begins to spin.

 

I guess the idea is, if we come in and turn in other climbers, then the Feds. might like us as a group enough to let us continue climbing. It seems like this might be what is happening down in Inyo. However, the Feds work in strange and mysterious ways, and I wouldn't be surprised either if some Fed Govt rep just says, "screw it, this is a pain in the ass" and just closes climbing the easiest way they can, like just stop putting money into maintaining the roads that climbers use to access their crags.

 

Anyway, ratting out climbers, besides being unmanly in a Vichy French kind of way, seems to be playing a dangerous game.

[Squid]

With drilling, by hand or by machine, you've left a permanent mark that others will continue to encounter in perpetuity unless extraordinary means are taken to restore the damage.

 

This sums it up well. Triple-check yourself before you bolt.

[Off_White]

you've left a permanent mark that others will continue to encounter in perpetuity unless extraordinary means are taken to restore the damage.

 

The Wawona Tunnel must really piss you off, not to mention granite countertops, gravel roads, Mt. Rushmore, and the stone lions at the Seattle Art Museum.

 

Please note that we're not discussing whether bolts are valid, but rather the effect of method of placement vis-a-vis the law, enforcement of motorized tool bans in wilderness areas, and how to maintain climber access.

[Lambone]

While chuck and Off White seem to think I am implying or proposing solutions....I contend that I am meerly asking questions in reponse to the recent occurance in California. Where apparently someone tipped off the Feds that this guy was power drilling. I'm wondering what percentage of the climbing community would do that?

 

So although you guys are both moderators under some percived higher authority here, I'd appreciate it if you quit jumping on me about my opinions. This is a problem, not because I said it should be...but because there are people out there doing it.

 

Whether or not you support bolts or power drills, you have to admit that breaking the laws enforced by the land managers affects our communities relationship with them in a negative way correct?

 

So, are you suggesting that we as a group passively support these actions by keeping quite about what we know? I guess the answer is YES, which is what the poll is about.

 

Personaly I think if a few people get busted it would dissuade the masses...the gym rat power drill feinds from running out to blank granite faces all over americas wilderness with their power drills, and making a real bad name for climbers in this country in general.

 

Bottom line is I believe in the Wilderness ethic and do not not believe climbers desrve to be exempt from it, just beacuse a bolt way up on some wall somewhere isn't visible from the trail.

[Lambone]

you've left a permanent mark that others will continue to encounter in perpetuity unless extraordinary means are taken to restore the damage.

 

The Wawona Tunnel must really piss you off, not to mention granite countertops, gravel roads, Mt. Rushmore, and the stone lions at the Seattle Art Museum.

 

Please note that we're not discussing whether bolts are valid, but rather the effect of method of placement vis-a-vis the law, enforcement of motorized tool bans in wilderness areas, and how to maintain climber access.

 

Please note off white, that we are discussing the Wilderness here, not your countertop.

[chucK]

I thought I was sticking strictly to the question of whether I would "rat" out a "fellow climber".

 

I gave you my reason why I would be loathe to do so. That reason, in a nutshell, is I would be worried that going to authorities would possibly cause more trouble for us climbers than it would help.

[ryland_moore]

I will rat out anyone trying to take my rights as a climber away, including using a power drill in the wilderness area. If they acted like jerks after I spoke to them, and they continued knowing that they could have a detrimental affect to my access to climb there, then I see no difference between me ratting them out and they being so selfish towrads the rights of other climbers that their project is more important to all climbing access. We may not like the rules placed with power drilling in a wilderness area, but it is still the law.

 

Off White, all of your exaples you use about tattling would have no direct effect on me being able to participate in that particular activity, unlike a climber power drilling in a wilderness area. Screw 'em!

[Off_White]

Bottom line is I believe in the Wilderness ethic and do not not believe climbers desrve to be exempt from it, just beacuse a bolt way up on some wall somewhere isn't visible from the trail.

 

Oh, I agree with you Lambone, but I don't think calling the Feds is a preferred option. Maybe you don't either, I guess you haven't really said. What is your position on calling the federal government to turn in someone for motorized drilling in the wilderness? Would personal experience with the individual involved play any role in your decsion?

 

I do think your "moderators are picking on me" stance is disingenuous. I've never given you any cause to believe I'm some sort of rogue cop out to get you, and ChucK is not even a moderator in this forum. Anyway, I'm far more interested in the topic at hand rather than some digression about how oppressed you feel by a bunch of moderators. I'd be glad to discuss this further via PM if you'd like.

[chucK]

But Ryland, have you not considered that your act of ratting out the lawbreaker could itself detrimentally affect your access?

 

The Feds might not have a quick clean way that will stop the bolting without inhibiting your access. You may lose your access due to collateral damage.

 

You could say, "it was that lawbreakers fault", and ultimately, down the chain of culpability, I would agree with you, but the net result would still be the same.

[Bogen]

Believing in the wilderness ethic is one thing, believing in the law is another. Is it right to break the law because you think it is wrong? Is it right to rely on authority only when it suits your purpose, and to defy it otherwise? Is there any such thing as objective "right?"

Ultimately there is only force - force of majority as is theoretically the case here. The guy is breaking a law that you support, would you force him to stop? If yes, would you try to do it yourself, or pass it off to the people who are supposed to force him to stop?

[Bogen]

By the way, no one has commented on the reason that power drills may be bad for wilderness areas. We seem to be hung up on our own access as climbers. Is there more at stake here?

[Dru]

it's not power drills - it is motors in general.

[Lambone]

Oh, I agree with you Lambone, but I don't think calling the Feds is a preferred option. Maybe you don't either, I guess you haven't really said. What is your position on calling the federal government to turn in someone for motorized drilling in the wilderness?

 

I guess it sorta depends for me. In most cases, if I knew about it and it was just one route and I was really upset about it....I'd probly just go quietly remove them and patch the holes. Although I admit that I have no experince here.

 

If it was some asshole selfish bolter who just ignored the rest of the community and did whatever he wanted and was slapping in routes/bolts all over the place with total disregard then I'd probly seriously consider turning him in. It would be a tough choice for me and take carefull consideration, I would more want the offender to get publicly humiliated rather then jail time and a huge fine...I don't necesarily agree with the penalty, and am glad in the California case that the authorities are flexible and cooperative.

 

You guys are both right and do have a good point though. It is sort of a Catch 22. Hard to know what the final outcome would be, although in this case I think it will be ver all good.

 

I think it is important that the Feds know that it is just a few rouge bolters out there commiting this act, which is not supported or commited by the community as whole.

 

However, by climbing routes like on Mt Garfeild....climbers indirectly support/condone the act.

[Alex]

It seems like alot of it comes down to how much you really believe in/value the concept of "wilderness". For a local example, I think anyone on this board would have a hard time not getting very angry at a new, rap-bolted line up Dragontail or the N ridge of Stuart, lets say. Imagine a Vantage-style clip-up up Razorback Ridge. I know I got really pissed off when Caveman recently mentioned someone bolting on Prussik (turned out to be hand-drilling).

 

But would I call in Larry the Tool to take care of what I would erase myself in a heartbeat though? Put it in those terms. No, in reality I personally would prob take matters into my own hands and take responsibility for my actions than "tell on" that someone and hope they get a 500$ fine. I think thats the stance of the vast majority of all climbers in North America, sporto or trad or what-have-you.

[Ducknut]

I will rat out anyone trying to take my rights as a climber away, including using a power drill in the wilderness area. If they acted like jerks after I spoke to them, and they continued knowing that they could have a detrimental affect to my access to climb there, then I see no difference between me ratting them out and they being so selfish towrads the rights of other climbers that their project is more important to all climbing access. We may not like the rules placed with power drilling in a wilderness area, but it is still the law.

 

Off White, all of your exaples you use about tattling would have no direct effect on me being able to participate in that particular activity, unlike a climber power drilling in a wilderness area. Screw 'em!

 

Ryland

 

I am right there with you. This is an issue of abusing or the total disregard for the wilderness designation and regulations. There are two issues, 1. the prohibition of motorized equipment in wilderness; and 2. placing bolts or other permanent objects in the wilderness. The regulations and I believe a wilderness ethic prohibit use of motorized equipment (except for rescues from life-threatening injuries) or the permanent placement of bolts (or any other permanent alterations) in designated wilderness areas without permission of the land management agency. Sorry that is just my belief.

 

This has nothing to do with marble counter tops or any of your other distracting arguments.

[Alex]

If it was some asshole selfish bolter who just ignored the rest of the community and did whatever he wanted and was slapping in routes/bolts all over the place with total disregard then I'd probly seriously consider turning him in.

 

People like this who drilled wilderness wouldnt last long in the community, though, they'd get their asses kicked!

 

However, by climbing routes like on Mt Garfield....climbers indirectly support/condone the act.

 

I don't know if it was ever answered, but is the Garfield route in-fact inside a wilderness boundry? It doesnt seem like it, since there is a road a few hundred feet away...?

[Alex]

There are two issues, 1. the prohibition of motorized equipment in wilderness; and 2. placing bolts or other permanent objects in the wilderness.

 

I thought we were only talking about issue 1 here? Maybe I am wrong but hand-drilling bolts in the wilderness seems almost a non-issue, same as leaving a nut or a cam on a route. I mean, "it happens" but is hardly a threat to access?

[Ducknut]

There are two issues, 1. the prohibition of motorized equipment in wilderness; and 2. placing bolts or other permanent objects in the wilderness.

 

I thought we were only talking about issue 1 here? Maybe I am wrong but hand-drilling bolts in the wilderness seems almost a non-issue, same as leaving a nut or a cam on a route. I mean, "it happens" but is hardly a threat to access?

 

The FS choose not to take on the controversial "permanent structure" aspect of this and took on the climber for using a motorized piece of equipment. Some here are only arguing the motorized equipment side of this incident, while others are pointing out that BOTH issues threaten access to climbers. Disregarding the placement of bolts being against current regulations is short-sighted.

[Mark_Husbands]

I am surprised about the chainsaws, since special use permits can be given for certain activities (approved scientific research, etc). I'm pretty sure I have seen chainsawed stumps on the PCT going through wilderness areas.

 

I am surprised by the chainsaw thing too. Ask the WTA here in Washington. When they do a work trail party, everybody brings these big band saws--sometimes they look to be 6 feet in length. I have asked why bandsaws. Same answer everytime is: "It's in a Wilderness Area and we cannot use chainsaws".

 

Ask Marylou. She is more up on it than I am.

 

However, I will say I believe some backcountry horsemen will use a chainsaw...if nobody knows about it.

 

"Except as specifically provided for in this Act, and subject to existing private rights, there shall be no commercial enterprise and no permanent road within any wilderness area designated by this Act and, except as necessary to meet minimum requirements for the administration of the area for the purpose of this Act (including measures required in emergencies involving the health and safety of persons within the area), there shall be no temporary road, no use of motor vehicles, motorized equipment or motorboats, no landing of aircraft, no other form of mechanical transport, and no structure or installation within any such area."

 

The next section describes exceptions, mainly from existing uses at the time of designation. fulltext:

 

http://www.wilderness.net/index.cfm?fuse=NWPS&sec=legisAct#5

 

The chainsaw thing hinges on agency interpretation of "minimum requirements for the administration of the area". This is sometimes called the "minimum tool" question. The Forest Service takes the line that trail maintenance and construction should be completed with simple tools because they are more consistent with the character of wilderness. The Park Service is much more open to the use of machines for administrative purposes, and often uses chainsaws and even helicopters to deliver trail supplies to remote sites. both agencies accept rescues as an appropriate administrative exception to the prohibition on machines. I used to work trail crew on the Inyo NF, and we used mules, misery whips, sledge hammers, rock bars and so on to do all that work. We also blasted with ANFO and dynamite. i always thought it was weird, but I think the reason explosives are seen as consistent but chainsaws arent goes back to the "western" vision of wilderness shared by many of the Acts authors and wilderness managers of the period. Explosives had been used for mining for a hundred years before the passage of the Act, so it seemed to fit in with the mules and double bits.

personally, I think the Park approach gets the job done quicker and maybe cheaper.

 

As for Wilderness bolting, I think the status quo is a pretty good compromise: you can hand place bolts but you may not use a power drill. This allows routes that link natural, protectable features to have an occasional bolt on a runout but prevents sport climbing development in wilderness. i've personally never carried a bolt kit and dont climb routes that warrant it, but it wouldnt burn me up to know that someone pioneered a wilderness route with a bolt here and there. but i'd be irritated at sport development in wilderness, although i don't think its inappropriate development in other roaded, non-wilderness areas.

[Bug]

I would not rat on a power bolter in the wilderness unless I ran out of ammo. Unlikely.

It took generations of work to get those areas into wilderness designation. We have a responsibility to pass on to our chilren what was passed on to us. Using bolts juditiously gives us more route opportunities than we can finish in a lifetime. Power bolting can be done ETHICALLY outside of wilderness. Stay out there. Future generations may have the technology to climb routes we can't climb using clean techniques. Give them the chance to have the same opportunities we have. Or be an asshole.