More Fee Demo News....

[jon]

These links are from Scott Silver of Wild Wilderness, please check them out.

First is from the Seattle Times http://seattletimes.nws ource.com/cgi-bin/WebObjects/SeattleTimes.woa/wa/gotoArticle?zsection_id=268448415&text_only=0&slug=judd01&document_id=134279768

 

http://www.enn.com/news/enn-stories/2001/04/04022001/feedemo_42774.asp

[This message has been edited by jon (edited 04-02-2001).]

[Retrosaurus]

I will never pay user fees. I would rather pay the fine if and when I get caught.

[chucK]

You also need to be successfully prosecuted.

I like those odds.

chucK

[rayborbon]

Just lie

[vegetablebelay]

What do you mean just lie? This fall I received a "Notice To Appear" in Yakima court, issued by some governmental body in San Antonio, TX after I failed to respond to three different requests for me to pay my fine or buy a pass. I didn't want a warrant out for me, and I didn't want to drive to Yakima (when I called, they told me it would be at least twice) to contest the fee. I was also told when I phoned that even if I went over to contest the fine, the governing body there in Yakima could not judge over whether the fee is just or constitutional - only that it was a ticket I didn't pay. They explained that just because I didn't feel the permit system is just, they couldn't let me off within their jurisdiction. I paid the 50 bucks figuring (hoping) I cost the system more than the 50 I was paying. I still intend to NEVER buy a Trail Park Pass, but I'm hoping I can somehow be more conscious of my alternatives to capitulating to this horrendous injustice to the American People.

Oh yeah, I'm capable of some serious civil disobedience over this issue too - you better aks somebody!

Vegetablebelay is in the hizzouse.

[This message has been edited by vegetablebelay (edited 04-06-2001).]

[AlpineK]

A few years back 2 friends and I met up with 2 rangers at the Colchuck lake parking lot. My buddy, "M," who was the most vocal got a $100 ticket for not signing out for a day hike and I got a warning for being uncooperative when I calmly explained how silly I thought registering for a day hike was. M was suppose to go to court in Yakima. M was thinking of paying up, but I told him I was taking the day off to go to Yakima with him. The court date got rescheduled twice because the rangers had to go to Yakima from the west side too. Finally the prosecuter dropped the fine to $50 and begged M to pay even though she admitted he would get off. M payed up, but I think the whole thing cost the government more than $50, and it certainly caused the ticketing rangers some stress.

My moral to this is, "fight the power."

[Jens]

If enough of us boycott, it will foil the system. The fee and permit deal to climb is WAY OUT OF CONTROL! Take a step back and analyze the system. It's nuts. Permits to park, climbing quotas, trailhead registrations, summit fees, sno-park permits, the list goes on. The situation here is making those rabid Yosemite rangers seem like mellow dudes. Speaking as one who has been harrased by them more then on more than a few occasions.

[AlpineK]

Just for the record I have writen people about fee use, however it's the confrontations like I described above that gets one motivated.

[dharmabum]

As a person who has recieved many fines and tickets (for refusing to pay the needless barrage of crap fees), I have the following thoughts:

Sometimes the tickets just fade away. Ignore all the letters, throw them all away. Just let two years or so go by, and I doubt you will even be able to find any record of the ticket or fine.

A pertinent post you might find interesting is the oma@iworld.net, or look up the Oregon Mountaineering Association.

Also, you could wear a t-shirt that says: "Hey Mr Ranger! I'm carrying a Black Prophet with the Alaska Pick. How important is this ticket to you?"

 

[rayborbon]

Hey Greg,

Did you see my previous link about forest money buying film projectors? Mt St Helens area. It was on their site where I got this info too. I wish all my money went there

[Craig]

You guys are all way too cool for me.

I buy the NW Forest pass, and I'm proud of it. I also sign TH logs and follow permit rules. I think that's a responsible way to act. If I was on a climb with people I didn't know, and the leader was arrogant and didn't have a park permit or sign the TH log, then I wouldn't trust my life to him/her...I'd turn right around and head home.

I also volunteer occasionally thru the WTA, and receive a free daily park permit for each day I volunteer. You can trade in 2 of them for a free NW Forest pass. I'm proud that I give something back. I guess I'm the only one in this entire thread who's not selfish.

They're going to build another Tacoma-Narrows bridge, and I hear they're going to put a tollbooth on it and change drivers. Good. I firmly believe that if you use it, then you should pay for it. I never take that bridge, and the last thing I want is to have my taxes go up and to pay for that damn thing. Let the people who use it pay for it. Period.

The same goes for Forest permits. The money has to come from somewhere. If it's not from permits it's from everyone's taxes, and I don't expect some Joe Shmoe who has no plans to ever step into a forest to help pay for it.

I'm not totally in support of buying permits, but I don't mind paying for what I use. If they take away permits, then I wouldn't mind if my taxes went up. Either way it's fine to me. I just don't expect to have my cake and eat it too, like the rest of you.

 

[Alpine_Tom]

There was an article in the Seattle times about this last year, and one of the bits I remember was a person who refused to pay the fee, on the grounds that since it was a "demonstration project" his refusal to pay was a form of protected speech. The judge bought it, as I recall.

Of course, I don't have any of the particulars, but maybe MrGoodTime or some other legal type might have some useful input on this tactic. (My search of the ST web archives failed to find that article.)

Another tactic suggested in an October 29, 1998 ST article is to park a quarter-mile from the trailhead because it is legal, although not advertised in the news releases about the fee program.

[Eddie]

Craig...Your such a good German.

[jon]

I don’t refuse to pay the fees because I hate taxes. I don’t refuse to pay the fees because I’m cheap. I refuse to pay the fees because the money doesn’t go to what it should be going for like trail improvements, ranger salaries and such. Instead it goes into the general fund. The fee is in no way able to support the workings of the forest service, let alone hardly support itself. The fee demo is also supported by the ARC, a group that only cares about is getting access to our public land at little to no price for them so they can profit from it. The fees also detract users who are of lower income and minority backgrounds. I’ve done quite a bit of research about this subject, and that is why I am against the forest pass in its CURRENT state. If things were to change where the fees were legitimate than I’d be more than happy to pay it. I based my decision on being educated in the issue.

As far as being selfish, I’m incredibly selfish and proud of it. I was a SAR volunteer for 6 years. I was a volunteer youth soccer coach for two years. I was a volunteer high school football coach for two years. Did I mention that I do AIDS related cancer research for a living? Yeah I’m pretty self absorbed. Go find another tree to piss on Craig.

Alpine Tom, the guy who you are talking about is a black minister from Seattle. He protests every weekend at the Alpental parking lot during the summer. Here is the article http://archives.seattletimes.nwsource.com/cgi-bin/texis/web/vortex/display?slug=fees&date=19990815&query=fee+demonstration. With the help of Ray, I’m putting together a more encompassing access section for the website that will cover issues like the fee demo and the proposed development outside Rainier.

 

[vegetablebelay]

Look at another user group for a different hobby:

A relative of mine is a boater. He has a large sailboat that he had to move from Lake Washington out to Puget Sound. He had to open up the Montlake Cut, the University Bridge, the Fremont Bridge, and the Ballard Bridge, then he went thru the Ballard Locks.

Each of these bridges are manned by fulltime "workers" and the Ballard Locks must employ more than a few people.

Now, how many times a day does the f*&^%ng Fremont Bridge open up, and how much does a boater pay for a system that requires so many resources (salaries, maintenance, energy)? The answer is nothing.

I think we are being taken advantage of.

Don't somebody come on here to tell me this is somehow different or extreme.

Vegetablebelay

[rayborbon]

Veggie,

Lie and say you were not in the areas that require fees to climb unless you are caught red handed. Then you are FUBAR. I lied I got off...

[jon]

Though I agree with you guys and have similar frustrations, I don’t think this is the best approach. Ignoring the fine is just not enough, you have to let these A-holes in D.C. know how we feel about this. Use your time for more constructive things like writing letters than pissing off judges and rangers. It does cost money to manage our public lands, don’t think for a second it doesn’t, but user fees will never make up for congressional budget cuts. It doesn’t help the ARC is paying these people to make these decisions either. I’m not saying pay the fee or fine, I absolutely rufuse to pay it, but wasting peoples time like in AlpineK’s account just wastes YOUR tax money and in the end nobody who is important finds out about your disagreement with the user fee.

[gregm]

It occurs to me that if the trail use fees go in part to pay for the US Forest Services operating budget, and the USFS routinely builds roads for logging at a loss (they spend more building the roads than they collect in harvest fees), then by paying for one of these passes we are essentially subsidizing deforestation. If this is true I wonder what the general public would think about this.

[Smoker]

While I have paid in the past for the "right" to access public lands I am nearing the end of my tolerance as well.

Here is a copy of my poorly written letter to our current Senators. Any input will be welcomed. (Also, anyone who wishes may copy,cut, snip etc for their own letter writing)

 

Senator,

I am writing to inform you of my disgust for the “Fee Demo” program implemented and spreading across the US.

First of all, it is only one additional cost (or tax, as I see it) to attempt make up for budget cuts to our forest service lands. It does not go directly back into the maintenance of areas that I use and am charged directly to access. The trails that I travel are not maintained any more now than they have been in the past. And more access roads are up for closure now that the timber interests are through raping our public forests, at a cost to us taxpayers.

Second, am I not already taxed federally? Doesn’t my tax dollars, or a portion of them, go to support our national forests and lands? Why am I being charged twice? I find it hard to explain how the Federal Govt. can have a 1.6 trillion tax surplus and still need to charge me to access public land that I, (we) already own. I can honestly say that I don’t care what the surface of Mars looks like when I am not “free” to examine the surface of my own “backyard”. Perhaps in the interests of “Fairness” you should consider charging welfare recipients for the “right” to access social programs as well.

Finally, as a registered voter, I find it disheartening that while we as a people can pass laws that affect our communities and lands, our Federal judges (that you and your fellow Senators confirm) consistently strike down as “Unconstitutional” the laws that we wish to be governed by. Sure, we can organize, spend our time undoing the wrongs that your peers have implemented, but that is why you are in office. Your actions or lack thereof will be judged by more than just me.

Civil disobedience is around the corner for many of us. While our voices are many and loud, our words are falling on deaf ears. Please do the “right” thing, and take an interest in our lands and in the “unfairness” that double taxation represents. We are all tired of paying “fees” to access public land that we already own, and are already taxed for.

Thank you, for taking the time to hear my concerns. If you have the time and desire, you may respond directly to me.

Sincerely,

 

[forrest_m]

Not to jump all over Craig, but I also think it's pretty narrow minded to label all opposition to the fee program "selfish." There's a lot more at stake than a $10-a-year sticker.

Here's what I see as the basic issue: what's wrong with using general tax money for things like trail maintenance? Even if only a portion of the population uses this government service, this is true of MANY services. We elect a government, they then decide how to spend the money. There's plenty of things the government spends money on that I personally see as unnecessary, but I still pay my taxes - and then vote for candidates who more closely represent my views. Until all the hawkish citizens who support such things have to pay a "user fee" to finance US military intervention overseas, I will continue to object to blanket user fees for using national forest lands that I already own.

There's more: why are some of the biggest resort companies lobbying so hard in D.C. for this to go through? It's because they want to establish a precedent for "pay-only" areas of the national forests. And what about the sneaky, circular way the forest pass in implemented: they establish a fee and charge a big fine to people who don't pay it. Then they use the statistics of payers vs. non-payers to "prove" to congress that the program has public support. And what about timber sales? The forest service spends more money building roads than it receives from selling timber rights to the lands that those roads service... and they want to charge hikers a user fee for running a weed-whacker up the trail once a year? And what about those signs on the trail claiming that the fee money goes back into trail maintainance? Bold faced lies. The money goes into the general fund and there has been no overall increase in funding for trails/trailheads. Look it up!

It goes on and on! Thanks to everyone who has taken the time to inform themselves about this issue, whatever their final opinion is.