Rope relative to harness on lead?

[johndavidjr]

I've been leading a little, for a couple of seasons, and have strived to keep rope running NOT between my legs but off to the side. I thought I was told that makes falling safer. Have I got that right? On reflection, it doesn't make obvious sense, as a means of avoiding getting flipped in fall. Wouldn't it be better to just keep rope on front side of your body, i.e. hanging straight down from harness, while climbing?

[specialed]

It depends on how far above the last piece you are. If its past your feet and the rope goes between your legs when you fall instead of one side which would result on getting flipped ass over teakettle and a nice rope burn on the back of your knee.

A lot less likely to get flipped if the rope runs to the side not b/w your legs.

[Dr_Flash_Amazing]

You definitely had the wrong idea with regard to the rope running between your legs. Straight down in front of you is EXACTLY the best place for the rope, although really, as long as the rope is between you and the rock, you're golden.

 

Being aware of where you are in relation to the rope is a good thing to be working on. Lots of beginners don't take this into account, probably because they were never taught to, which can lead to sketchy scenarios. Basically, if the rope is running from your harness down and then behind your leg (a situation commonly arising from step-through moves or traversing moves, or during clipping), if you fall, you're likely to get flipped upside-down, resulting in head crackage. It really doesn't take much to be a bit more conscious of where the rope is at, and it really makes climbing a lot safer.

 

It's amazing how many people don't pay attention to where the rope's at, though, even experienced climbers. DFA has seen a couple falls in the gym that resulted in the climber getting flipped at least part way upside-down due to getting a leg between the rope and the rock.

 

Good on you for paying attention to that, and good luck staying right-side up!

[Alpinfox]

I thought this thread was going to be about tying your grandmother to your harness while lead climbing...

 

 

I got a nice rope burn on the back of my knee once from falling with the rope behind me. I wasn't wearing a helmet and almost got flipped upside down.

 

Bad leg/rope position:

*also note the side-loaded carabiner on highest piece

[ketch]

Good on ya for working on the rope position. If your climbing fairly straight up it should go down betwwen your legs. If your traversing it should exit in front to that side.

You always want it in front of you and exiting so that it points roughly at the last piece. I find that the worst routes for me are the ones that go up at about a 30 degree, seems the rope is always under foot and that is when I am most tempted to let it lay behind my leg.

[Mike_G]

As a general rule, if you can look down and see the last bolt between your legs, run the rope between your legs. If you're off to the side, make sure the rope is off to the side.

 

I never heard much about this the first year or two of leading I did, but realized how important it was when I took a 20' inverted whipper because I stepped through to get back on route (on an easy section!) and my shoe slipped off the hold. Due to a badly sprained ankle, now I'm very aware of it, and point out rope position to new leaders constantly.

 

In the words of our hopefully short-timer commander-in-cheif: "Be vigilant".

[slothrop]

A good thing to keep in mind, especially as a beginning leader. I forgot about it at exactly the wrong time a couple years ago... lucky I had my hard hat on:

 

[SnowByrd]

I'll follow up in this thread with another question I was going to ask....it seems to fit here. So anyways, I've been reading Long's How to Rock Climb and he describes the different types of falls but doesn't go into as much detail as I'd like when he describes 1) How they happen, and 2) How to (hopefully) avoid injury when falling.

 

Rope position and the positioning of your appendages seems to make a huge difference, at least according to the book. Can you guys take this one step further and tell us Newb the TYPES of falls, and HOW to take them, and WHEN they occur? Basically, just keep going with this thread

 

Thanks!

[tomtom]

I'll start off:

 

Falls while leading on trad: Don't.

Falls while leading on ice: Don't.

 

I've heard of too many snapped ankles this year to recommend otherwise.

[SnowByrd]

yeah, thanks for that tomtom...real helpful.

[Dru]

Types of falls?

 

TR falls

Lead falls that are "clean"

Lead falls where you hit something

Lead falls where you hit the ground

Soloing falls

Falls where you rip off enough rock that you hit your belayer with it and knock him or her out so they lose control of the belay and then you fall and land on them... don't laugh, cause it actually happened at Vantage!

Falls of rock and/or ice from above

Falls of large amounts of rock and ice from high above where a helmet would be irrelevant

Frozen water falls

Not quite frozen waterfalls

Slush

Falling freshiez

Fall leaves

Falling into blackness

 

Or if not then what exactly do you mean?

[cracked]

There are several kinds of falls. The most prevalent one is when you lose hold of the rock and gravity accellerates you at 9.81 m/s^2 towards the center of gravity of the planet. The others I'm less familiar with.

 

Not much you can do in the air. When you fall, it tends to happen quickly. Fall only if the fall is clean. If the fall won't be clean, don't fall. Oh, and don't fall on ice, don't fall on low angled terrain, don't fall when there's bad pro, don't fall when you'll go 100 feet, etc, etc. And since you seem to want to alpine climb, focus on not falling in general.

 

As for the rope/leg issue, think about what will happen if you were to fall. It's pretty simple. When you're above the pro, rope between your legs. To the left, the rope should be to your right. And vice versa. Visualize the fall, and you'll see if the rope position is correct. It's not rocket science.

[Thinker]

Types of falls?

 

TR falls

Lead falls that are "clean"

Lead falls where you hit something

Lead falls where you hit the ground

Soloing falls

Falls where you rip off enough rock that you hit your belayer with it and knock him or her out so they lose control of the belay and then you fall and land on them... don't laugh, cause it actually happened at Vantage!

Falls of rock and/or ice from above

Falls of large amounts of rock and ice from high above where a helmet would be irrelevant

Frozen water falls

Not quite frozen waterfalls

Slush

Falling freshiez

Fall leaves

Falling into blackness

 

Or if not then what exactly do you mean?

 

falls where one scrapes down a scrabbly slab

[J_Fisher]

Falls while leading on trad: Don't.

 

I hear this a lot but don't get it. I've fallen more on gear than on bolts. (I climb a lot more on gear.) Since on a typical well protected gear climb I try to protect the hard moves, this usually means falling a short distance. Ideally, a well bolted sport climb will have the bolts close enough to avoid big whippers, close by for hard moves and in the right place to avoid whipping you onto ledges, projectiles, lips of rooves, etc. But these are not the rule, and would be called "over-bolted" by many.

 

If you can't place good gear safely (or evaluate whether your gear is good) then whipping on to it is not good. But if that's the case the you probably should spend some time learning to place gear better. Easy aid is a good way to learn what's good and what's not.

[J_Fisher]

Falls while leading on ice: Don't.

Couldn't agree more with this though. One of the scariest things I've ever seen was some guy taking a 60 footer on the Weeping Wall. Yikes

[tomtom]

Falls while leading on trad: Don't.

 

I hear this a lot but don't get it.

 

If you can't place good gear safely (or evaluate whether your gear is good) then whipping on to it is not good.

 

J, This is exactly my point. If you have to ask someone else, then don't.

[ketch]

SB, I'll have to go look at Longs book. I can only think of two kinds of falls. 1) the ones that you see coming. 2) the ones where you magically find yourself not attached to the rock anymore.

For the first it's best to try not. In the alpine just don't go there. If your there already then make your last moments "preparing" for the fall (is my rope right, do I have a clear fall line, HANG ON, etc ) these are mostly silly efforts as it goes pretty quick and if you could do these you probably could keep yourself from falling. Big help here is to keep your head together and don't freak.

For the second kind, it's not really magic but you just popped and your accelerating before you realize it. This is why you keep your rope in mind while you climb. Here again keeping your head together helps and relax and enjoy it helps. It's hard to have fun in a fall but falling all tensed up can leave you more sore afterwards.

It helps to set some bomber anchors and practice some falls under supervision to me more comfy. Before your falls think through direction and positionong and you'll get used to it soon enough. Then again I'm sure most of us (those who fit the mold) remember their first leader fall. It is way liberating when you are OK and the gear you placed held and your belayer caught you, everything just worked. Then after you change your shorts you just fine.

[ketch]

SB, I'll have to go look at Longs book. I can only think of two kinds of falls. 1) the ones that you see coming. 2) the ones where you magically find yourself not attached to the rock anymore.

For the first it's best to try not. In the alpine just don't go there. If your there already then make your last moments "preparing" for the fall (is my rope right, do I have a clear fall line, HANG ON, etc ) these are mostly silly efforts as it goes pretty quick and if you could do these you probably could keep yourself from falling. Big help here is to keep your head together and don't freak.

For the second kind, it's not really magic but you just popped and your accelerating before you realize it. This is why you keep your rope in mind while you climb. Here again keeping your head together helps and relax and enjoy it helps. It's hard to have fun in a fall but falling all tensed up can leave you more sore afterwards.

It helps to set some bomber anchors and practice some falls under supervision to be more comfy. Before your falls think through direction and positionong and you'll get used to it soon enough. Then again I'm sure most of us (those who fit the mold) remember their first leader fall. It is way liberating when you are OK and the gear you placed held and your belayer caught you, everything just worked. Then after you change your shorts you just fine.

[Toast]

I've been reading Long's How to Rock Climb and he describes the different types of falls but doesn't go into as much detail as I'd like when he describes 1) How they happen, and 2) How to (hopefully) avoid injury when falling. Rope position and the positioning of your appendages seems to make a huge difference, at least according to the book. Can you guys take this one step further and tell us Newb the TYPES of falls, and HOW to take them, and WHEN they occur?

 

Actually, Long's short chapter on falling talks exactly about how to avoid injury when falling. In short, stay relaxed and in control. Stay facing the rock to avoid tumbling.

 

The point at the top of the thread was to avoid letting the rope get behind a leg when veering off to one direction when on lead (see the first picture.) If the climber were to fall, his right foot could be caught behind the rope and flip him over like the guy in the second picture. To avoid this, step back over the rope so that the ROPE is between you and the rock. It can feel awkward, and typically the rope doesn't do this on its own, but it's safer if you get in the habit of keeping the rope between you and the rock.

[SnowByrd]

I've been reading Long's How to Rock Climb and he describes the different types of falls but doesn't go into as much detail as I'd like when he describes 1) How they happen, and 2) How to (hopefully) avoid injury when falling. Rope position and the positioning of your appendages seems to make a huge difference, at least according to the book. Can you guys take this one step further and tell us Newb the TYPES of falls, and HOW to take them, and WHEN they occur?

 

Actually, Long's short chapter on falling talks exactly about how to avoid injury when falling. In short, stay relaxed and in control. Stay facing the rock to avoid tumbling.

 

The point at the top of the thread was to avoid letting the rope get behind a leg when veering off to one direction when on lead (see the first picture.) If the climber were to fall, his right foot could be caught behind the rope and flip him over like the guy in the second picture. To avoid this, step back over the rope so that the ROPE is between you and the rock. It can feel awkward, and typically the rope doesn't do this on its own, but it's safer if you get in the habit of keeping the rope between you and the rock.

 

The last two posts here are definitely right in line with my question. It is difficult, having not actually experienced this, to ask my question so that it makes sense to those I'm asking. and I apologize for that...it can't be helped. The context of this thread started off with a question about rope placement and falling....so I took it to the next level (if there is such a thing) and asked about rope placement and falling.

[Dru]

I never practiced falling, but I still managed to fall quite easily!

[ketch]

SB, the post that toast put up is right on. Both mine and his lead the same way. It boils down to keep your head together and stay in control all the way through the fall.

Don't let any body fool you. I have never met a climber that is all laid back and comfy in a fall.

[sk]

Types of falls?

 

TR falls

Lead falls that are "clean"

Lead falls where you hit something

Lead falls where you hit the ground

Soloing falls

Falls where you rip off enough rock that you hit your belayer with it and knock him or her out so they lose control of the belay and then you fall and land on them... don't laugh, cause it actually happened at Vantage!

Falls of rock and/or ice from above

Falls of large amounts of rock and ice from high above where a helmet would be irrelevant

Frozen water falls

Not quite frozen waterfalls

Slush

Falling freshiez

Fall leaves

Falling into blackness

 

Or if not then what exactly do you mean?

 

falls where one scrapes down a scrabbly slab

god those just hurt. I think I am most aware of falling on slabs.

 

to me there are 3 kinds of falls

1) falls where you just fall and that is it. your heart pounds but you are okay

2)falls that hurt and you bleed but you still want to climb so you keep going. thesa generaly happen for me when I am top roping something way out of my leauge and I am "playing" I hit the climb knowing I am going to fall

3)falls that make it so you can never climb again. I try to avoid those.

 

as far as the rope thing. as a belayer i watch the rope. I have the best veiw of where it is, and especialy with new leaders, yel at them to watch where the rope is. I am not a physics master but I can guesstimate the way a fall might go and I try to stay aware of that in regaurds to where the rope is even when i am on the ground.

[JosephH]

Falls while leading on trad: Don't.

 

If you follow this advice you'll never move your trad climbing skills along, falling is part of leading trad. Trad was never meant to be a risk free activity and learning to fall intelligently on lead is part of the game. Falling on lead falls into two categories - intentional and unanticipated.

 

"Intentional" you say? First, to be honest, I believe most climbers only climb to their physical limit a couple of times in a lifetime and then usually under threat of death; the rest of the time, even though you tell yourself you're falling, you're really jumping off that rock from the emotional stress.

 

By "intentional" I mean you you know you're coming off; so what then? Well, you should have a pretty good idea of the rock below you at that point as in, hey, you just climbed up it, so "intentional" fall scenarios go like this:

 

The happiest scenario is you were climbing an overhanging wall or roof and you are a ways off the ground so just cut loose and enjoy the ride - you aren't going to hit anything.

 

The second happiest scenario is you're climbing a long smooth vertical wall; stepping back, push off, and turn a bit sideways (will happen by instinct) and take a ride that you will only enjoy if you've done it a lot of times.

 

[The scenarios start getting a little bit less happy at this point...]

 

You're climbing more uneven ground and so now planning for, and anticipating, falling has to become an integrated aspect of placing protection and climbing past it.

 

Protection is only that if it can do its job - every piece should be placed understanding the fall potential, both of falling above it and the fall if it pulls. These "fall potentials" should be analyzed and understood as you climb as they dictate the risks and decisions associated with climbing on, downclimbing[, or jumping] at any given point. This shouldn't be a preoccupation or obsession or constant negative noise in your head - it should just be a normal, integrated part of knowing your situation as you climb and place pro.

 

Once you place a piece of protection you should have a pretty good idea of the risks associated with climbing past it and falling. Right up front that should free you to climb and push your limits, or cause you to consider what you are doing more carefully and either pushing on knowing a fall is not an acceptable outcome or backing down. No one can say "how to fall" in general, beyond push off and try not to hit anything - the important idea is have all the main issues relative to how bad a fall it might be figured out before you start up any given section of a pitch. Things like: how far is it likely to be to the next good piece of pro (how long of a potential fall), what's the quality of placement of the piece I just placed (how much of a fall can I take), what happens if this piece pops (how long a fall then and how likely is it my pro will zipper), what's the nature of any likely fall (ledges, protrusions, straight drop, swing down around a corner, overhanging, etc.).

 

You should always be thinking ahead and weighing your options as you move beyond a placement. But once you decide to go - go - don't be second guessing yourself, it won't help. Make your decision, stay calm, and go.

 

"Unanticipated" falls are usually, but not always, caused by a hold breaking on you that you didn't expect. This generally happens fast, without warning, and there is seldom anything you can do about it. I had this happen several weeks ago after testing every other piece of rock around the next move on a new route I grabbed the one that [i thought] needed no checking and the whole top of that rock came out in mid move like it was greased and I was off before I could do, say, or think anything. Try to avoid these by rapping on suspect holds and testing them. But every now and then you just get caught and there isn't much you can do about it. The other category of "unanticipated" falls that happens is being hit by something and again, there isn't much you can do about it beside hope you don't get hurt bad and can get back to business or bail.

 

The only place where I personally buy into "don't fall" if humanly possible is when slab climbing - such falls are typically not happy and you can get pretty beat up in the process. Lots of advice in the forums on how to take such slab falls, but none of the options (sitting down, try to slide, run for it, etc.) are particularly happy.

 

As everyone else has said, staying calm and keeping your wits about you so you can think clearly is the best and safest advice...

[catbirdseat]

Mattp has told me to run madly backwards if I fall on slabs. Somehow I have managed to avoid falling on slabs, but most certainly the time will come.