Ice-Sporto Litter

[Dan_Petersen]

So, if someone leaves a bunch of gear on Forbidden its booty, and if someone leaves a bunch of gear on The Tooth, or nearby, its a "project"? Sounds like we need a Booty Boundary definition. More than X miles from the trailhead and "projects" become "booty target areas". I vote that the threshold is two miles.

[Stefan]

I vote everything is up for grabs. Even the bolts.

 

Bolts are for people who are afraid of falling. Trust me. Falling is like parachuting. Do it once, and you're hooked.

[ashw_justin]

I honestly don't believe you'd have a Right (with a capital R) to be pissed off if somebody bootied your quickdraws after you left them there.

 

Now don't get me wrong--if you took them, it would be wrong, and a mean and greedy thing to do, and you might get your ass kicked for doing it. But there is no written rule or law that sanctifies hung gear. There is only respect--respect is earned, and reciprocal.

[MervGriffin]

might i kindly suggest that we take the tired old bolt/anti-bolt remarks to a new thread in a more appropriate forum?

 

No. This post started out to describe a situation at a particular place. There is gear left hanging off someone's idea of a "route" in the Alpine Lakes area of the state (defined on this site as: "Region covers all Cascade peaks South of Steven's Pass and North of Mt. Rainier National Park.") Sorry that you find this topic unimportant and uninteresting, if not boring. I think it's very important.

 

And then...there's MattP:

 

Titling a thread "ice sporto litter" and starting out by describing the climb as an "attrocious bolted overhanging "mixed climb" that someone must think is really special," with typical Dwayner-style venom and put-down, reminds me of prior threads based on the premise that sport climbers are cowards who do nothing but deface the rock.

 

And what you described is one valid climbing perspective - of many - (and of which I am not alone in holding) that guys like you seem to want to censor. The Mattp-style venom is to accuse me of being intentionally manipulative or to accuse me of hijacking a thread and turning it into an ethics debate. Guess what. I started the topic so there is no hijacking although I suppose it will all end up in spray where such ethical issues seem to be dumped by some moderators.

 

In my opinion, the past net effect of threads that started out like this, or headed this direction before they were done, has been to get lots of people mad, drive many users away from the board, and to stifle conversation about important issues.

 

I find your comments at least as stifling as you find mine. People should be mad. I described a situation as I saw it. I named no names because I don't know or really care who the culprits are. I think, however, they should AT LEAST take their portable junk home with them when they are done playing, and strongly consider whether their permanent alterations in the form of bolt trails are worthwhile.

[ashw_justin]

Damn I came to see if anybody else had anything to say, and instead I see your essay about your personal issues with other cc.comers. We don't really care if Mattp offended you. Can you guys go outside and beat the shit out of each other so that we get back on topic?

[MervGriffin]

Damn I came to see if anybody else had anything to say, and instead I see your essay about your personal issues with other cc.comers. We don't really care if Mattp offended you. Can you guys go outside and beat the shit out of each other so that we get back on topic?

 

And what did your post add to the topic?

 

P.S. Did you read this part?

"I think, however, they should AT LEAST take their portable junk home with them when they are done playing, and strongly consider whether their permanent alterations in the form of bolt trails are worthwhile."

or just the reply to Mattp's nasty post?

[cracked]

$10 on mattp!

[mattp]

Like you say, Merv, I'm simply "calling it like I see it."

 

Tone it down a bit and I think you'd find folks more able to discuss whether climbers should take their draws home with them and we might even see a reasoned discussion of whether permanent alterations in the form of such bolt-intensive mixed climbs are worthy.

[Kimmo]

Come on now...

 

If he toned it down, the clinical diagnosis would become "passive/passive".

 

Do the math....

[ashw_justin]

P.S. Did you read this part?

"I think, however, they should AT LEAST take their portable junk home with them when they are done playing, and strongly consider whether their permanent alterations in the form of bolt trails are worthwhile."

 

No sorry man, I missed that part. You hid it well.

[Jens]

The route looks cool and hopefully Roger will redpoint it in November.

 

Yes, the draws have been up for a long time- Anyone know how long(12months?) plus there was a brightly colored rope hanging on it for a very long time.

Spring, Summer, & Fall, the only people that walk by it are climbers going to the tooth. The winter situation may be slighlty more delicate because a huge volume of lift skiers (who don't climb go under it and may be offended and complain to powers that be)? Plus we have a lot of rich policy makers & policy makers that lift ski!

I left my draws on a sport project for six months once at an area that didn't have any other sport routes by it. For some reason I kinda had a weirdish,bad vibe about it in my gut (it didn't feel right). Hopefully this thing will get redpointed asap and the draws will come down (they are an eyesore in my humble opinion).

[upzmtn]

Seems to me the topic is "how long to leave the draws in place. Even if it did seem appropriate to leave them there all season long, leaving them through the summer seems a bit ridiculous. Maybe he left town unexpectedly or something? I'm not sure of the location but if it is cleanable on a rap they should be gone out of a basic respect for a)anyone that wanted to try and climb it totally clean or b)the other 5 million people who are up there. what we seem to be forgetting to consier is the potential visual impact on non-climbers. We can piss all we want internally but it's the many thousands of hikers and others who will out-vote and out-regulate us as we blindly in-fit into oblivion.

[chirp]

Amazing with the world in its state we still all feel arrogant enough to spray and flog eachother over such a useless topic.

 

Does he care? I doubt it...he just wants freedom and a nice bowl of food.

[mattp]

Note: some posts here have appeared to be based on the assumption that the draws in question are hanging right above the trail to Snow Lakes. That is not the case.

 

The climb we are discussing sits above the access route for Das Toof, and would only be seen by people who have left the hiking trail and are following this "way trail" (or some variant of it -- I as up there two months ago and did not see this route even though I was keeping an eye out for it).

 

I agree with those who criticize the practice of leaving draws hanging on a cliff. As I've said: it has become an "accepted" practice by many and I think that is unfortunate.

 

But lets not be confused here: these draws are not hanging above a popular hiking trail crowded with non-climbers. In my mind that doesn't make it "better," but it changes the discussion somewhat: by-and-large it is climbers who will be offended, not families with their kids. The issue in this case is what do WE want to see at the crags and in the mountains, not what are THEY going to see.

[Spliffy]

Even youngsters can enjoy "Steel Net" climbing! Just drap the net over your local climbed-out choss heap, or even a just-beyond-the-wilderness-boundary choss heap, and "climb on"!! And no more tired old bolting debates! Just clip in where ever you feel like it!

[Stefan]

I would like to know where this route is exactly. I am a person who gets little booty. I need some more. Please be very specific as I do not want to walk all over to find it. Thanks!

[selkirk]

Has anyone successfully bootyed my nut on SEWS? Still a beer up for grabs and it definitely qualifies as alpine garbage!

[Dru]

You know something? Tourists like looking at climbers and as far as I can tell they don't seem to mind seeing bolts and draws hanging on trailside climbs.

[mattp]

I think you are mostly right about that, Dru, though I generally think that we should avoid developing climbing areas right next to trails or roadsides or campgrounds -- there is much more potential for user conflicts than there is for any benefit to come from creating situations where we will be interacting with other users such as hikers, bikers or families with small children, or creating hazardous roadside situations by standing around on the shoulder, or creating a "scene" that is observable from a picnic area.

[Dru]

Well the unfortunate problem is that land managers aren't tourists, but have to justify their jobs.

[mattp]

?

[Dru]

= land managers don't like looking at bolted crags and draws next to trails even though tourists do.

[MervGriffin]

I generally think that we should avoid developing climbing areas right next to trails or roadsides or campgrounds -- there is much more potential for user conflicts than there is for any benefit to come from creating situations where we will be interacting with other users such as hikers, bikers or families...

 

or trad climbers.

[mattp]

Dru, the land managers I have spoken with have expressed little concern for bolts per se, but they do fear user conflicts and management issues associated with some sport climbing -- so in that respect I think you are right that they are more likely to take issue with a sport climb being sited right next to a trail than is a tourist. Is that a sign of their "justifying ther job" or is it a sign of their "doing their job?"

 

Merv, I may agree with you. I don't recommend that someone add sport routes at an existing trad crag, if that is what you are saying.

[Dru]

Justifying ones job is a matter of doing something so that one appears to be working. Such as inflating a non-issue like Infinite Choss into a serious issue with closures and such like.

 

I am talking more generally here of things such as the Twin Owls in City of Rocks being closed to all climbing so that tourists can experience the Oregon Trail experience without seeing any intrusive climbers climbing a rock. You can bet some dim bulb with a government job or a position on a NGO thought that one up.