Ice-Sporto Litter

[backcountrydog]

after reading all of this, it doesnt sound like there is anyone that is pro-litter. i am all for mixed rts but i dont think leaving draws up for months is good style. but ill bet those draws have been up since last winter, and since this is the first time its been made an issue here(?), how big of an eyesore is it really? unless your going up there looking for something like this? and if someone is going to do the rest of the cc.com climbing community a favor by taking the gear down, i think they should continue the favor and return the draws to the person who left them. after all, having fun and sharing a love of climbing with fellow climbers is whats its all about. oh ya, and actually going out and climbing

[Cpt.Caveman]

That depends on what you are calling litter.

 

And RUMR what you are equating as an "acceptable" retort is just he did it first mommy. Now it's ok.

[RuMR]

hahahaha...you are too funny, caveman...

 

Your statement about lack of trash talking on their part is not accurate, then you cover it by saying we BOTH were acting like two year olds...

 

My response was not a "retort" in the classical sense...it was an end to my discussion as in "well you can fuck off then"...

[MervGriffin]

"RUMR" say:

No, caveman, that isn't exactly true...

I asked 2 serious questions first, which were ignored, then was referred to as a spoiled selfcentered child in my response to ashw and had stupid ass photos to refer to...From this point on, i reasoned that there was no discussion available, and my retort was then "fuck off"...

 

Here were your questions:

 

"Dwayner, a real question for you...please don't answer with sarcasm...

Is there any place that it would be acceptable to bolt for sport climbing? and, please, spare me the response of "why of course, young laddie, the gym!!!"

Or do you and your views hold sway, in your mind, over every single crag in the good ol' USA (i say your mind, cuz its not necessarily illegal everywhere)? whoops, snuck an extra question in..."

 

First of all, these questions are irrelevant to the subject which is about somebody(s) leaving their gear on their little sporty-project in the mountains. There are already enough distractions from the subject as it is including moderators and others (including "RUMR") attacking me, etc. rather than addressing the real issue. My opinions on sport-bolting and bolting in general can be found in numerous topics elsewhere. If you’re actually serious about my views, they can be discussed some other time or place.

 

Secondly, given your history of vulgar retorts, I don't feel compelled to answer you. Here are some of your contributions to this topic so far: Give them a look and ask yourself why I’d want to spend time giving you a serious answer. (I made an effort to address a few of the other folks at length because they were moderators and I found their comments especially unacceptable.)

 

“quit posting photos of yourself and relatives, prof. wank...

 

"Feel free to clip any draws you see hanging around...its playground equipment for the children...you see, we can't all be growed up like you, don..."

 

"so tired...so tired out....so lame...need to find a photo to post..."

 

"hey pope...how bout this for a >=0 contribution?"

 

"Go fuck off...

you are a bonafide idiot and a master of hyperbole..."

 

"again, go fuck off..."

 

"I'm 12...how old are you? my guess...93. sorry that's the best i could do...couldn't find any lame pics to post"

 

"My response was not a "retort" in the classical sense...it was an end to my discussion as in "well you can fuck off then"..."

[RuMR]

no...merv you've never answered, to my knowledge, whether it would be ok to develop any crag as a sport crag...

 

I recognize that you are very very anti sport and for the most part, anti bolt...but, do you think it could possibly, even in a parallel universe, exist w/ trad climbing???

 

You launched the first volley this time...

[ashw_justin]

This may be selfish of me, but I'd like to thank Merv_Griffin for his dedication and verbosity in responding to everyone's comments. It's rare to find a cc.com memeber with the tenacity and forum ethic exhibited here, and his work is a shining example to those of lesser capacity to post. For the true virtuoso of the keyboard leaves no caveat unexplored, no distraction unflirted, and no insult unanswered. Special care is also given to the proper citation format, using quote boxes, bold-face emphasis, and quotation marks. For this gift, we are humbly greatful, for perusing the extensive works of our fellow poster constitutes the pinnacle of our daily activities. Hero, may your keystrokes never cease!

[RuMR]

sarcasm sensor on full overload...its gonna blow...

[cracked]

 

Don, I'd be curious to hear your anwer to Rudy's questions as well. How about answering them?

[ashw_justin]

Oh I forgot we were still on topic. Sorry 'bout that. I thought it was already agreed that the bolts are okay, bolting mixed climbs is okay, and bolting climbs that can't be protected traditionally is okay. Or did I miss something?

[willstrickland]

Here's what I don't quite get:

 

Everyone is focused on shooting the messenger, rather than addressing the issue. I just read through this thread for the first time. More time was spent railing against Merv and raising peripheral issues because of pre-existing disagreements with his bolting stance, than addressing the issue itself.

 

As I understand it, this is about visual impacts in the woods from draws left hanging on a project. Everyone seems to believe that leaving them hanging is accepted in some places while actively "working" a project, but that they should be removed when not being worked. Perhaps we should be focusing on what constitutes "actively" working a project and guidelines for when to remove draws. End of the day? End of the season?

 

Surely these guidelines will vary based on individual area. Whether or not you agree with Merv's other stances on bolting and sport climbing is beside the point. He did not raise those issues, but instead pointed out this particular issue.

 

I used to climb in American Fork,UT and Foster Falls, TN where there are some steep cave type routes that ALWAYS have draws hanging on them. In fact, on some of the climbs in the bunkers at Foster's the draws consist of a wrenched down quicklink through the hanger and a biner in the other end. That kinda pisses me off because I don't know anything about how long they have been there and I can't clip into the hanger with my own gear. It's not an issue for me anymore because I don't really sport climb anymore...maybe once a year or something. The point is, those routes are very hard to clean draws from because they are about 75 degrees overhanging, and it's accepted that there will be draws hanging there full time. These routes are also situated such that the only people who would notice them are other climbers or the rare hiker who scrambles onto the climber's trail at the base.

 

I only add this because I think it illustrates some scenarios where leaving draws hanging for a long time is generally accepted. I personally concede that there is a place for sport climbing much like there is a place for lift skiing. I don't care for it myself, and I believe it has no place in the mountains, and that trad lines should not be retrobolted and trad areas shouldn't have a bunch of bolted squeeze jobs added, but that's neither here nor there.

 

I am under the impression that the developers of this area intend to add more lines. Will they then leave draws hanging on those lines as well? When does it become too much?

 

Here's a contrasting example: I climbed Total Soul in Darrington last week. This is one of MattP's creations and the bolts, chains, etc are all painted matte grey or black to blend with the rock. In fact on the raps I was hanging about 10 feet from the next rap station, and really had to look around to see the next station...it was right under me almost. That's an effective visual impact reduction job.

 

Just food for thought.

[chucK]

Allright! A post not dogpiling on Merv! Will Strickland for President 2004!

 

Noone has come out of the woodwork saying it is acceptable to leave your draws up there. I am certainly not going to either. I will add some facts(?) specific to this discussion though.

 

First, from viewing the routes from below, they don't appear to be so continuously overhanging as to make cleaning the draws on rappel very difficult. At the worst I think it may be inconvenient to get to the top anchors (climb another line? downclimb and/or rap through some icky trees?) Alex could probably fill us in on this.

 

Second, I don't believe this alleged eyesore has been there since last winter as I walked/skied by there a couple times this spring and didn't see any fixed draws or ropes (though I was able to find the bolts and chains).

 

Exit 38 is an ugly place indeed. I would hate to have this relatively beautiful placed soiled by a mess like they have there. I doubt it is currently in danger of such trashing since most of the use of these Source Lake crags occurs during the winter when the base area is protected by the snowpack. It could get pretty bad though if the crag gets more developed and an ethic of leaving lots of gear takes hold. I really hope this doesn't happen.

 

ETA: It appears that I was not even looking at the route under discussion, thus at least one, maybe both, of my "facts" added here were incorrect .

 

Apparently the route is quite overhanging, so getting draws on it and off it (on rap) would be a bitch. And since I wasn't looking at the correct route, I may have missed the offending items.

 

If the draws have been there since last winter, it can't be too terribly obtrusive, since I missed seeing it on all 4 Tooth jaunts this year.

 

Still would hate to see this "leaving the draws hanging thing" become the prevailing ethic up there. I hope it was just a mistake.

Edited September 13, 2004 by chucK

[ashw_justin]

As I understand it, this is about visual impacts in the woods from draws left hanging on a project. Everyone seems to believe that leaving them hanging is accepted in some places while actively "working" a project, but that they should be removed when not being worked. Perhaps we should be focusing on what constitutes "actively" working a project and guidelines for when to remove draws. End of the day? End of the season?

 

This is where the thread was going before everybody got involved in their little personal issues. People need to learn how to turn the other cheek for the benefit of the greater good. (I'm not naming names or anything...)

 

So how about it? The draw issue is complicated. No single person takes responsibility for them. Usually they are left up with the intention that others will use them, so the person who puts them up feels no responsibility to take them down. People who use them feel that they are someone else's, so they leave them alone. Probably the only time they come down is if someone feels they need to be replaced, or someone wants to use their own gear. So really there is no way the draws will ever disappear unless the route is deemed inactive, and someone goes and takes them down for this reason. On a sport route this is pretty much never.

 

Now this is just my opinion, but I think that on a winter mixed route, the draws should come down as soon as the line is melted out. That is unless it's one of those wierd crags where people sport climb with ice gear in the summer, in which case that's not mixed climbing, it's A0.

 

ps. Specific case, if it's a "project" i.e. somebody is marking their territory... the same rules should apply, and if they are broken, it's piss at your own risk.

[Cpt.Caveman]

 

Noone has come out of the woodwork saying it is acceptable to leave your draws up there. I am certainly not going to either. I will add some facts(?) specific to this discussion though.

 

The silence might also be acceptance.

 

First, from viewing the routes from below, they don't appear to be so continuously overhanging as to make cleaning the draws on rappel very difficult. At the worst I think it may be inconvenient to get to the top anchors (climb another line? downclimb and/or rap through some icky trees?) Alex could probably fill us in on this.

 

Who cares about that part. The point doesn't have anything to do with it.

 

Second, I don't believe this alleged eyesore has been there since last winter as I walked/skied by there a couple times this spring and didn't see any fixed draws or ropes (though I was able to find the bolts and chains).

 

Does this time deal really matter? Do we really need that stuff up there when people leave? It's not doing anybody a service to resort to leaving gear behind like this in an area like this except for the climber that left them behind.

[MervGriffin]

 

Don, I'd be curious to hear your anwer to Rudy's questions as well. How about answering them?

 

Sure. I'll meet with you and your buddy sometime in-person (so as not to bore the many who have already heard it) and explain it all to you: the history and the philosophy. It will be interesting to learn if you guys have the same foul-mouthed, juvenile personality in-person as you do here. Don't worry. I'm not a violent guy and I won't be backed up by a bunch of thugs.

 

P.S. I assume "Rudy" is "RUMR" and I see by your web-site that your name is "Paul". You act like you know me on a first-name basis but I don't think I've ever met either of you.

[MervGriffin]

As I understand it, this is about visual impacts in the woods from draws left hanging on a project. Everyone seems to believe that leaving them hanging is accepted in some places while actively "working" a project, but that they should be removed when not being worked. Perhaps we should be focusing on what constitutes "actively" working a project and guidelines for when to remove draws. End of the day? End of the season?

 

Thanks, Will, for your useful insights. I have to disagree with you that this is all about VISUAL impact. That is part of it, for sure, but I think that there are other issues too. Here's how I feel about it:

 

1)Leaving little trace means taking your mess home. If you're not physically climbing on it, take your stuff down at the end of the day. It's ugly and you have no right to leave that sort of junk in the woods. I pack out other people's gum wrappers I find in the wilderness; why can't these people pack out their gear? Too lazy to make the effort? Don't want to lead it from the bottom and make the effort to reclip their own bolts?

 

2)It is like "pissing" your mark on the rock. This gets into another controversial issue: "the project" , which I personally think has little validity if it is on public land [please don't start up that one in this topic]. The quick-draws of uncertain vintage and quality might prevent others from trying it (although in this case I think the route is bogus...part of my notion that bolts should be avoided if a route can be top-roped.)

[sexual_chocolate]

Have we all forgotten Donald's original post?

 

 

 

Went up to the Tooth yesterday and passed that attrocious bolted overhanging "mixed climb" that someone must think is really special. If this line of closely-spaced bolts in a wilderness area isn't bad enough, it is presently festooned with quick-draws and 'biners from bottom to top. Whoever is responsible should go in and collect their garbage.

 

 

Donald Donald Donald; you sure know how to work a crowd.

 

If you are trolling around for a response, you've done good, and proven yourself to be a masochist of the highest order; if you are serious with your "I really DO change people's minds", and "People DO take me seriously" remarks, then seemingly you are a deluded individual.

 

It's self-righteous people like you who do more to damage relations between disparate view-points than just about anything I can think of (George Bush, anyone?).

 

The tone of your opening salvo above pretty much guaranteed the reaction you received, and would make it worth the loss of a few quick-draws just to see you sweating away up there in your quasi-religious huff-n-puff clipping from bolt to bolt, removing satan's spawn from the poor defiled virgin stone that you have taken such a fervently protective interest in (do you speak in tongues, by the way?).

 

 

So, I invite you please to go on and remove the most offensive blasphemy ever known to man from the wilderness setting in which it so offends you;

but please do me this favor: please please allow me enough notice so that I may attend the event and capture your heroics on film, so that we may have (strictly for our progeny, mind you!) a testament of one man's driven passion to eradicate a terrible scourge and evil from our midst!

 

Waiting for filming rights, Mel Gibson

[MervGriffin]

Mr. Chocolate:

 

Your post has added NOTHING to this matter other than, as someone else stated, to attack the messenger. If you've got something of substance to contribute to the topic...say it...otherwise, sit-down.

 

P.S. I make no apologies for my original post.

[cracked]

[Alex]

2)...part of my notion that bolts should be avoided if a route can be top-roped.

 

since you've seen the route - that it overhangs about 35 feet in 80 feet and that approaching it from above is very difficult, especially in winter, you'll know that top-roping this route would be much more dangerous than leading it.

[sexual_chocolate]

Sir, with a modicum of intelligence, one might glean from my post a rather succinct and direct reply to your original topic (one that you seem to have swayed wide and far from); namely: "I will NOT go and remove the draws from the 'eye-sore'".

 

In fact, I WILL PAY YOU if I may film you removing them;

as a matter of fact, I will pay you $50 for the filming rights. If you remove the bolts, I will add another $50.

 

Just think: This is your chance to make some money while ridding the world of evil.

 

Now why don't you sit down and think about this offer, huh?

 

Sit down, please....

[RuMR]

 

Don, I'd be curious to hear your anwer to Rudy's questions as well. How about answering them?

 

Sure. I'll meet with you and your buddy sometime in-person (so as not to bore the many who have already heard it) and explain it all to you: the history and the philosophy. It will be interesting to learn if you guys have the same foul-mouthed, juvenile personality in-person as you do here. Don't worry. I'm not a violent guy and I won't be backed up by a bunch of thugs.

 

P.S. I assume "Rudy" is "RUMR" and I see by your web-site that your name is "Paul". You act like you know me on a first-name basis but I don't think I've ever met either of you.

 

history...that's funny, i'll bet i've been climbing close to the same amount of time as you, give or take a few years...

 

beerz it is ...funny thing...your constant pics of a bully are laughable given my stature...another funny thing, i'll say exactly what i write...i don't mince my words in real life either...

[AlpineK]

Shit man I offered to pay Don about $100 to climb a 5.13, and all I got was hot air.

 

[pope]

2)...part of my notion that bolts should be avoided if a route can be top-roped.

 

since you've seen the route - that it overhangs about 35 feet in 80 feet and that approaching it from above is very difficult, especially in winter, you'll know that top-roping this route would be much more dangerous than leading it.

 

Oh really? Just how did those bolts get placed on the first "ascent"? Was this modern test-piece established on the lead? I could possibly change my mind about it in that case.

[cracked]

Pope, Tommy Caldwell's 5.15a 'Kryptonite' was established on lead.

[RuMR]

as were most of the steep 5.12+ and harder stuff at the NRG and Rifle...too steep to lower from the top...