Honesty, Part II

[Greg_W]

Lets be fair then, Greg. What lies have the Dems told that comes close to

 

A. lying about the fundamental reasons why we invaded Iraq (yellow cake ring a bell? terrorist training camp on Iran border? ongoing weapons programs?)

 

or, more recently,

 

B. lying about Kerry's record of voting against military weapons programs (apparently, none of the programs in quesiton ever came up for a vote, and the votes in question were supported by the Bush company's hawks).

 

C. Repeatedly insinuating as a theme at the National Convention that the Clinton admin was weak on terrorism and Bush was strong on this issue - before 9-11 (Bush's team tanked Clinton's anti-terrism efforts, Condoleeza did not attend any meetings on this topic, and they even complained how the Clintonites were "obsessed" with terrorism)

 

 

Oh yes. "I did not have sex with that woman."

 

A. We could bat this around like a volleyball all fucking day. I believe that he took the intelligence that he had, much of it developed during the Clinton years, and went for it.

 

B. Kerry did vote against the Defense Appropriation bills that contained additional F-14, F-16, and M-1 purchases. However, so did a bunch of other people; not to mention, Secretary of Defense Cheney, who testified that they were not needed at the time. My guess is that he said this at a time when the Defense Department was trying to get away from the F-14 and into the FA-18 but, that's just a guess.

 

C. Hmmm...Kobar Towers bombing, no response; USS Kohl, no response; World Trade Center bombing, no response...and that's skipping a couple. Sounds like Clinton was rather soft to me.

[Greg_W]

Greg and RobBob are portraying typical republican tactics. They want to avoid the real issues of the day because the current president is a spineless fratboy who ran three businesses into the ground and is now in the process of running the USA into the ground.

 

And what is John Kerry? A Viet Nam vet of somewhat questionable service with 20 years in the U.S. Congress with no distinction whatsoever and a penchant to make like a trout on land on the issues. You think one of the 5 richest members of Congress isn't cut from the same fratboy cloth as George W? I would say that making the hard decision to send men into combat hardly qualifies as spineless.

[dryad]

C'mon everybody, get real! Lying is as much an essential part of politics these days as blue suits with red ties. Sad but true. The goal isn't to pick the guy who doesn't lie, but the guy who lies less often, lies about less important things, mentions a real issue once in a while, and is less likely to fuck up America any more than it already is fucked up. Following these (granted, rather feeble) criteria, Kerry wins.

[Off_White]

Right on Dryad, c'mon, stick your head into the gaping maw of the woodchipper that is the CC.Com political squabbles. Welcome! No, really. I mean it.

[dryad]

What can I say, it's a slow morning.

[mattp]

Yes, Greg, we could go round-and-round.

 

A: Bush's own intelligence people pretty much told him there was no yellow cake uranium purchase, Saddam was weak and posed no imminent threat, and they had no evidence of ongoing nuclear weapons programs. He chose to broadcast not their doubts, but the uncorroborated reports of defectors who told him what he wanted to hear. That is, at the very least, a lie of omission if not an active lie.

 

B: So you agree, that the statement Cheney made at the convention was indeed grossly misleading, if not an outright lie.

 

C: Clinton proposed the Homeland Security effort, and sent the proposal to Bush's desk. Bush tanked it. Clinton actually tried to get Bin Laden. Prior to 9-11, Bush people ignored Bin Laden and Rice didn't even show up to meetings discussing terrorism. Then, after 9-11, Bush took action guaranteed to let him go by stating his invasion plans for six weeks prior to taking action - from the safe distance of 5,000 feet. He's failed to make chemical plants, nuclear plants, harbors, or anything else safer - but he's got my 7-year-old nephew afraid to get on an airplane for fear of having his scissors taken away.

 

Clinton didn't invade a country that had nothing to do with terrorism, if that is what you call weak on terrorism.

 

 

Now. You wanna tell me how Kerry and the Democratic leadership has lied about things of such a fundamental nature - on such a daily basis and with similar impunity?

[Greg_W]

Clinton didn't invade a country that had nothing to do with terrorism, if that is what you call weak on terrorism.

 

 

Now. You wanna tell me how Kerry and the Democratic leadership has lied about things of such a fundamental nature - on such a daily basis and with similar impunity?

 

Somalia, Kosovo

 

John Kerry has billed himself as a pro-Second Amendment candidate, yet he's voted for every gun control bill submitted and against every pro-gun bill submitted. Look at most of his platform; there's no way he can get that shit passed. It's all smoke and mirrors on both sides. Again, if you want to believe that your candidate and his party are squeeky clean, I've got swampland to sell you.

[AlpineK]

Here's a blow by blow list of Bush lies...nicely formatted too. press

[mattp]

I knew you'd reply with Kosovo, Greg. I'm not surprised. But Somalia and gun control? I'm disappointed.

 

Kosovo:

I'm still dumfounded why you and Fairweather keep bringing this up. There are some similarities, perhaps, if you are right that NATO grossly exaggerated the intelligence reports of ongoing atrocities in Kosovo and if Clinton was knowingly complicit in this. There was, however, an ongoing civil war and there were in fact atrocities being committed at that time - not some ten or twenty year old "record of killing his own people" that was trotted out over and over again as if we were referring to yesterdays' events. Also, it was not "our war." Virtually all of our allies agreed that it was time to intervene except Russia. No American soldiers were killed, and I don't believe there was much prospect for ongoing U.S. entanglement, so it was not then, nor is it now, such a big issue in American politics. Did President Clinton go on national TV over and over again repeating lies which, even if he believed what he said at the time (doubtful in Bush's case), he eventually knew to be "inaccuracies?" (And worse, Bush knows that if anybody checks the facts, they will know the truth but he is gambling that folks like you just don't care.)

 

Somalia:

What are you talking about? As far as I recall, we got ourselves bogged down in urban combat in Mogadishu and bailed. I don't know the history, and I wouldn't doubt if some bad calls were made, but I don't recall the President lying to take us into a war. Are you saying there was no humanitarian crisis or humanitarian motive? Didn't Papa Bush actually send in the US Forces, at the request of the UN or with their approval or something? Are you saying Clinton lied to get us OUT?

 

Gun Control.

If you ever believed that Kerry was your man on second ammendment issues, you are not very astute.

 

 

Try again.

 

Oh yes. Don't come back with that "if you think the democrats are squeaky clean" B.S. I don't think anybody on this site has ever raised that argument, and I would be the first to admit that most of the Democrats, including Kerry, are spineless slimeballs. But for out and out lies, and for getting a free pass, Bush and Co. are masters.

[AlpineK]

The US death toll in Iraq has now past 1000.

 

So 1000 US soldiers have died because Bush lied about the reasons to go into Iraq. Even if Kerry lied about his action in Viet Nam nobody died as a result of it.

[iain]

Even if Kerry was accidently shooting his own troops over in Vietnam I consider it more dignified than the service records of those in the Bush camp who were getting on his case about Kerry's service. It is nice to see that perhaps this is being set aside now, now that both sides realize there is not much to be gained out of it.

 

The 1000 figure is pretty staggering. I wonder when it will match the WTC casualty figures. Time to send in the forces or get them out. Just do something!

[Jim]

Interesting that during the RNC I don't recall hearing the name "Osama bin Laden" mentioned. Seems we forgotten about him.

[Dru]

They haven't forgotten Osama they have him in double secret confinement waiting for his capture to be trumpeted 5 days before the election to help out Bushie Jr. with the last minute polls.

[foraker]

"I don't know where he is. I have no idea and I really don't care. It's not that important." (March 13, 2002.)

GWB

[mattp]

Yo Greg:

I still don't understand what you meant by "Somalia."

[Greg_W]

I mean, "why the fuck were we there? We had no business there. Clinton's reasons for going in were dubious at best." Our military is not a humanitarian institution; it's a machine for making war.

 

Oh, what about the aspirin factory that Clinton bombed to get everyone distracted from his Monica fuck-a-thon?

[Jim]

This is an excellent example of the GOP talking points. When painted into a corner with facts about the dishonesty of your guy - yell Clinton!! Clinton!! It's a great distraction. But funny, I don't see him on the ballot this year.

[AlpineK]

It's even funnier because George Senior was the one who sent troops into Somolia

[mattp]

Greg: are you saing that BUSH lied about why we went in there, or just what are you saying here? Are you saying Clinton lied about the reasons for the eventual "mission creep?" Even so, can you point to where he lied in his State of the Union speeches on this topic, had his top guys give false testimony to the U.N., and the Press ignored these "transgressions?"

 

Clinton lied about the Aspirin factory just how? Are you saying he deliberately bombed a medical facility? Or that he KNEW it had no connection with Osama? Does this compare with the Bush Administration's statements - repeatedly - that Saddam was arming and harboring terrorists? They have made these statements directly and indirectly at every turn, and the press seems largely to ignore the obvious mistruth here.

[Greg_W]

I'll admit I am out of my element with furthering this discussion; nor do I have the time to commit to it. Sorry. I'll concede.

[mattp]

In that case I'll concede that Kerry is a turd.

[rbw1966]

Courtesy flush, please?