Peter_Puget Posted August 19, 2002 Posted August 19, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Terminal Gravity: In my opinion the "falling is okay" or "fall on pro to learn to trust it" approach that several posters condon is sheer folly. (Sport exepted) I have taken over 20 trad falls, one grounder when a piece popped and I broke an ankle once when a piece held. Falling is NOT okay. Learn to NOT fall! The gear is a back-up. You, your focus, and your experience should be the primary part of climbing safely. Why do you think most fatal accidents happen on rappel...because gear fails, ussually because of human errors or improper use, but it fails. That is the one thing that you can count on. It is a fact of climbing that must be excepted. So, Shakey, here is my suggestion. It has worked for me. Free solo. Yes, you read it right and it might sound crazy. But if you do it right, take baby steps, climb known rock way way under your ability, solid and short at first, you will learn focus and confidence and you should develope the skill of mental calmness. When I now lead and place a solid piece I get this rush of "wow that is so cool..Protection; what a concept". I read this post and thought don't say anything but then I had to respond. TGis right at the top and I believe iresponsible at the bottom. Take this quote:"...because gear fails, ussually because of human errors or improper use, but it fails." Simply it is absurd. Imagine you are in a car heading toward a wall and stepped on the gas not the brakes. TG would call it gear failure! Enough on this. To encourage some unknown person that they solo to get rid of anxiety fear while climbing is just plain reckless. I can't tell you how to not be fearful maybe it is a good thing you are,maybe it is just a short lived phase. I once on a several week climbing trip I went from climbing 5.10 trad fairly consistantly to backing off a well protected 5.7 because I was scared. My partners thought I was going crazy and where somewhat irritated I was wasting their time backing off route after route. Fortunately for the rest of our trip they had fun leading and I had fun following. After awhile I was back to leading and eventually lead harder and more difficult to protect climbs than I had ever climbed before. I say relax and climb and try not to force the issue. PP Quote
sketchfest Posted August 19, 2002 Posted August 19, 2002 I agree with what a few on this thread have stated about "Falling is not an option" gear is truly a backup, anything could happen during a fall and it could rip out and we've all had those falls that just happened even when we felt solid on the rock. In my case, after my fall, I didn't trust anything, especially my placements, I had to get my head into thinking that I could at least hang on my gear when I got skecthed out or pumped. I still won't run a piece out if the climbing is hard and I think a potential for a long fall is involved. As my partners can attest, I tend to down climb until I get it figured out. Quote
fleblebleb Posted August 19, 2002 Posted August 19, 2002 I'm with Puget... take it easy, climb what you feel like, eventually the confidence comes back. When I started climbing I wasn't comfortable on even fairly basic stuff but I got better over time; since then I've had a setback, spooked myself, and now I am less comfortable than I used to be - but have definitely been getting better. Dru nailed it too... go have fun, climb cool alpine routes, enjoy being out there, forget about adrenaline climbing and even technical climbing for awhile. If you've ever come off a climb and thought, dang, that wasn't half as technical or difficult as I hoped, well, after getting spooked you have a new opportunity to really enjoy those technically simpler climbs. Quote
Terminal_Gravity Posted August 19, 2002 Posted August 19, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Peter Puget: TGis right at the top and I believe iresponsible at the bottom. Take this quote:"...because gear fails, ussually because of human errors or improper use, but it fails." Simply it is absurd. Imagine you are in a car heading toward a wall and stepped on the gas not the brakes. TG would call it gear failure! Enough on this. To encourage some unknown person that they solo to get rid of anxiety fear while climbing is just plain reckless. I can't tell you how to not be fearful maybe it is a good thing you are,maybe it is just a short lived phase. I once on a several week climbing trip I went from climbing 5.10 trad fairly consistantly to backing off a well protected 5.7 because I was scared. My partners thought I was going crazy and where somewhat irritated I was wasting their time backing off route after route. Fortunately for the rest of our trip they had fun leading and I had fun following. After awhile I was back to leading and eventually lead harder and more difficult to protect climbs than I had ever climbed before. I say relax and climb and try not to force the issue. PP PP, maybe you are right. Maybe it is irresponsible to have suggested it, but it worked for me. I don't feel that I should have to include a manufacture's warning to one of these posts. It has been said before that ultimately we are all responsible for our actions. I would hope that shakey can learn from my shared experience and make his own decisions based on his knowledge of himself. as far as your example...no, clearly the car failed to keep from hitting the wall because of human error just as if someone rap's off the end of a rope it is not the ropes fault... but the result is the same. Quote
Greg_W Posted August 19, 2002 Posted August 19, 2002 Another thing: Scope out your first couple of placements on a pitch and mentally climb through that point before starting. That helps me to leave the safety of the belay with a plan. Quote
iain Posted August 19, 2002 Posted August 19, 2002 It helps to be able to sort out what kind of fear you are dealing with in given situation. Sometimes you can get plagued by that feeling of impending doom, where you can't really iron out why you are spooked. I seem to get this more often on bigger mountains around here (yeah, Hood/Rainier aren't that big, I know that you chest-beating hardmen ). Particularly places where you know people have died, even if they screwed up bigtime (top of Cooper Spur is this way for me, though it's well within my ability and comfort level). Being able to climb through this type of fear can be difficult. Then there is the fear of what might happen, but probably won't (what if the swage on that nut just rips right off, I'm dead!). Another one to ignore! Then there is the "if this ice tool pops I'm falling 300 feet" type of fear. That's the one to pay attention to! [ 08-19-2002, 03:41 PM: Message edited by: iain ] Quote
iain Posted August 19, 2002 Posted August 19, 2002 Double-posting demon strikes again! [ 08-19-2002, 03:41 PM: Message edited by: iain ] Quote
sk Posted August 19, 2002 Posted August 19, 2002 quote: Originally posted by glen: I think the advice above is pretty good. When I had started climbing, I was so scared of heights I'd be gripped 10' off the ground on a TR. I got over it by getting out on easier stuff and just getting off the ground with appropriate climbing partners. I also took a near-dead rope into a climbing gym one day and just started taking whippers until I understood that it was okay. It was mentally difficult, but incredibly helpful in getting beyond the mental block of falling. Every season, I have to 'get my head right' again, but it climbing is so damn much fun that it is worth the effort of moving past mental blocks. Encouraging the mentality of committment in other activities like mountain biking helps too, in addition to keeping you in better shape for those steep approaches. Climb On! This has been sugested to me as well. In a gym, relativly controled environment. Just to check out what it FEELS like to take a leader fall. not outside, not on placed gear. Considering it. Wondering if it will help at all. I also agree with what Fern said about improving all over fitness and strength. Hoping that will help with the big aproches and that the endurance will help with my climbing. [ 08-19-2002, 03:50 PM: Message edited by: sk ] Quote
allison Posted August 19, 2002 Posted August 19, 2002 Falling in the gym DOES help. I'm also doing a lot of hiking (flame suit on) with much higher levels of exposure than I was consistently doing, and that seems to be helping. Not there yet with the rock, but hanging it out a bit on 4th class is not hurting. Having a hard time being patient though. Quote
sk Posted August 19, 2002 Posted August 19, 2002 quote: Originally posted by fern: I'm not icegirl Sorry FERN my bad [ 08-19-2002, 03:53 PM: Message edited by: sk ] Quote
Dru Posted August 19, 2002 Posted August 19, 2002 quote: Originally posted by fern: I'm not icegirl mixedgirl Quote
erik Posted August 19, 2002 Posted August 19, 2002 quote: Originally posted by fern: I'm not icegirl yeah fern rules and icegurl only wishes she came close to fern.... fern rulz!!! Quote
iain Posted August 19, 2002 Posted August 19, 2002 quote: Originally posted by allison: Not there yet with the rock, but hanging it out a bit on 4th class is not hurting. Having a hard time being patient though. I have less experience here than many, but I'm thoroughly-convinced that in the mountains, the ability to move very fast in exposed 4th class mode is one of the most valuable skills you can have, particularly when coming down. I'd take a 5.7 climber as a partner over a 5.11 climber any day if he/she is solid at exposed scrambling. (unless the route goes at 5.9 or something ) [ 08-19-2002, 04:05 PM: Message edited by: iain ] Quote
erik Posted August 19, 2002 Posted August 19, 2002 i used to be much more afraid of it....though some how i have managed to break that cycle.. the things that helped me with it....was broadingin my partner base...create the unexpected for you...usually one is so comfortable with their partners that when the shit fits the fan, the repsonse is alredy there. if your partner is better then you, you will give yourself to them. creating a relliance and weaking your confidence. also this teaches different styles of climbing...some people have ways that may work, but do not flow for you. next think about climbing, not falling. if you want to fall then certainly think about that. it is just like when you drive...you look one way you start to veer that way...so look at the climb and see your success. breathing and breaking down the climb into mini climbs, works well also...i look for the rests and the placements, telling myself to work between them...do not stop where you are not supposed to stop(ever seen judgement night) i had some more but my brain is tired.... Quote
Greg_W Posted August 19, 2002 Posted August 19, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Dru: quote:Originally posted by fern: I'm not icegirl mixedgirl Does that mean she goes both ways? Quote
sk Posted August 19, 2002 Posted August 19, 2002 I think I may need hiking lessons. I would MUCH rather climb 3rd class(haven't done 4th) than trudge arround on dirt trails. On dirt I slide , fall on my ass and struggle. 3rd class up or down I feel solid and happy to be making progress. any suggestions? besides the obvious, that I am an idiot Quote
Greg_W Posted August 19, 2002 Posted August 19, 2002 quote: Originally posted by erik: the things that helped me with it....was broadingin my partner base... I agree. I have climbed with about eight different partners off the .com this year and have found that it makes me more self-reliant within our little climbing team (i.e., I KNOW what I can do, I don't completely know what he can do). Like Erik said, you don't become dependent on a partner you're comfortable with. Greg W Quote
Greg_W Posted August 19, 2002 Posted August 19, 2002 quote: Originally posted by iain: yeah and she's a dry-tooling fan Couldn't...help...it...just...comes...out: Doesn't that chafe? Quote
glen Posted August 19, 2002 Posted August 19, 2002 Aiding on TR, or just going aid cragging is a great way to gain confidence and experience in the world of natural pro. As to falling being okay... I can't speak for what others said, but I feel I should clarify what I meant above. I suggested going to a gym to do this, where the risks are minimized. By 'falling until you realize it's okay" I didn't mean to imply that there should be a blase attitude towards falling. Having falls be an unknown both makes them scarier and potentially more dangerous as the leader may not be able to accurately judge how far he-she will fall. Likewise, if a person has had a bad experience with falling, a few safe falls to build a different type of association with falling may help the person to continue climbing in the face of a potential leader fall. In short, if the issue is not trusting natural pro: go aiding and get a lot of placements under your belt and figure out what does/doesn't work. If the issue is being afraid of a fall: take a few in a well controlled environment to at least know what a fall is and have it be a known and expectable quantity. I think that mixing the two generates unnecessary risk. Climb On! Hell, I'd be willing to get out on some long, easy routes too. Just heard a description of Cinderella that makes it sound pretty enticing... Quote
iain Posted August 19, 2002 Posted August 19, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Greg W: Your horrible jokes are justified by your liberal use of smiley faces and some animation of a squirrel eating somebody's liver. Quote
Greg_W Posted August 19, 2002 Posted August 19, 2002 Thanks Iain. Here's some just for you: Page top!!!! Thanks to you, Iain. [ 08-19-2002, 04:09 PM: Message edited by: Greg W ] Quote
forrest_m Posted August 19, 2002 Posted August 19, 2002 my opinion (and it’s obvious from this thread that people seem to vary a lot in how the deal with this stuff) is that taking safe falls in the gym will improve your ability to “go for it” on bolted sport climbs, and not much else. You will learn to fall confidently on gear that you knew beforehand was guaranteed to be good. My experience with trad climbing is that once you get past the ultra-novice feeling of invincibility (if you ever had it), the only thing that works is step-by-step, a little at a time, earning your stripes, gradually putting the miles in, you get the drift. And recovering from a shakiness-inspiring event is more of the same. For me, the generalized feeling of doom you get standing at the base of a big alpine route is in a completely different category than the fear-of-gear shakes, mostly because it really just fear of the unknown. Except for climbs that are really well within my limits, I’ve never really gotten over the pre-climb jitters, I’ve just gotten used to it. You just keep moving and pretty soon, the quickest way back to “safety” is over the top, not going down… Sometimes the feeling of doom goes away after I have my morning bowel movement. Quote
Attitude Posted August 19, 2002 Posted August 19, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Greg W: quote:Originally posted by erik: the things that helped me with it....was broadingin my partner base... I agree. I have climbed with about eight different partners off the .com this year and have found that it makes me more self-reliant within our little climbing team (i.e., I KNOW what I can do, I don't completely know what he can do). Like Erik said, you don't become dependent on a partner you're comfortable with. Sounds like you're both ready to join the mounties. Quote
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