Swift Boat Swine for Truth

[johndavidjr]

Those poor fools ranting about Kerry's war record look more foolish than ever.

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/20/politics/campaign/20swift.html

[rbw1966]

how about posting the article for those who arent subscribers?

[Camilo]

It's about 5 pages long. Here's most of the first page.

 

Friendly Fire: The Birth of an Anti-Kerry Ad

By KATE ZERNIKE and JIM RUTENBERG

 

Published: August 20, 2004

 

 

fter weeks of taking fire over veterans' accusations that he had lied about his Vietnam service record to win medals and build a political career, Senator John Kerry shot back yesterday, calling those statements categorically false and branding the people behind them tools of the Bush campaign.

 

His decision to take on the group directly was a measure of how the group that calls itself Swift Boat Veterans for Truth has catapulted itself to the forefront of the presidential campaign. It has advanced its cause in a book, in a television advertisement and on cable news and talk radio shows, all in an attempt to discredit Mr. Kerry's war record, a pillar of his campaign.

 

How the group came into existence is a story of how veterans with longstanding anger about Mr. Kerry's antiwar statements in the early 1970's allied themselves with Texas Republicans.

 

Mr. Kerry called them "a front for the Bush campaign" - a charge the campaign denied.

 

A series of interviews and a review of documents show a web of connections to the Bush family, high-profile Texas political figures and President Bush's chief political aide, Karl Rove.

 

Records show that the group received the bulk of its initial financing from two men with ties to the president and his family - one a longtime political associate of Mr. Rove's, the other a trustee of the foundation for Mr. Bush's father's presidential library. A Texas publicist who once helped prepare Mr. Bush's father for his debate when he was running for vice president provided them with strategic advice. And the group's television commercial was produced by the same team that made the devastating ad mocking Michael S. Dukakis in an oversized tank helmet when he and Mr. Bush's father faced off in the 1988 presidential election.

 

The strategy the veterans devised would ultimately paint John Kerry the war hero as John Kerry the "baby killer" and the fabricator of the events that resulted in his war medals. But on close examination, the accounts of Swift Boat Veterans for Truth' prove to be riddled with inconsistencies. In many cases, material offered as proof by these veterans is undercut by official Navy records and the men's own statements.

 

Several of those now declaring Mr. Kerry "unfit" had lavished praise on him, some as recently as last year.

 

In an unpublished interview in March 2003 with Mr. Kerry's authorized biographer, Douglas Brinkley, provided by Mr. Brinkley to The New York Times, Roy F. Hoffmann, a retired rear admiral and a leader of the group, allowed that he had disagreed with Mr. Kerry's antiwar positions but said, "I am not going to say anything negative about him." He added, "He's a good man."

 

In a profile of the candidate that ran in The Boston Globe in June 2003, Mr. Hoffmann approvingly recalled the actions that led to Mr. Kerry's Silver Star: "It took guts, and I admire that."

 

George Elliott, one of the Vietnam veterans in the group, flew from his home in Delaware to Boston in 1996 to stand up for Mr. Kerry during a tough re-election fight, declaring at a news conference that the action that won Mr. Kerry a Silver Star was "an act of courage." At that same event, Adrian L. Lonsdale, another Vietnam veteran now speaking out against Mr. Kerry, supported him with a statement about the "bravado and courage of the young officers that ran the Swift boats."

 

"Senator Kerry was no exception," Mr. Lonsdale told the reporters and cameras assembled at the Charlestown Navy Yard. "He was among the finest of those Swift boat drivers."

 

Those comments echoed the official record. In an evaluation of Mr. Kerry in 1969, Mr. Elliott, who was one of his commanders, ranked him as "not exceeded" in 11 categories, including moral courage, judgment and decisiveness, and "one of the top few" - the second-highest distinction - in the remaining five. In written comments, he called Mr. Kerry "unsurpassed," "beyond reproach" and "the acknowledged leader in his peer group."

[Fairweather]

Why won't Kerry release his military service records?

[willstrickland]

http://www.johnkerry.com/about/john_kerry/military_records.html

[Fairweather]

Oh please, Will. The Kerry website? Those are only documents he has chosen to display. Again; why won't he release his complete military service records to the public?

 

Why is the Kerry Campaign now filing a complaint with the FEC about the Swift Boat Ads? What a fucking crybaby! Lawsuit time!....That's what the Dem's do best! After the shit that Bush has put up with silently ala Michael Moore, dozens of outrageous books, moveon.org Nazi ads, slander about his guard service...and not like John Kerry.

Once again we see how liberals respond to free speech they don't like....

Edited August 21, 2004 by Fairweather

[willstrickland]

Oh please, Will. The Kerry website? Those are only documents he has chosen to display. Again; why won't he release his complete military service records to the public?

 

Seems like an obvious place to look, dontcha think? I have no idea why he wouldn't release them all, maybe he had to get medical treatment for hemerroids or some embarssing shit like that. I think you could ask a similar question about Bush...why is there so much info blacked out in his records and were all of them also released? I don't know.

 

Why is the Kerry Campaign now filing a complaint with the FEC about the Swift Boat Ads?

 

I think the reports were pretty clear on the reason. SBVFT is a 527, which by law is not supposed to be directly affiliated with a campaign. The Kerry side seems to believe that they can prove collaboration or coordination between the SBVFT and the Bush/Cheney campaign and/or the GOP. Given Rove's relationship with one of the financiers of the group, and both main fiancier's extensive history of GOP involvement, I'm inclined to think they may have a case. Seems almost impossible to prove though.

 

slander about his guard service

Careful there Fairweather, slander assumes that the statements made were untrue. Bush has not been able to disprove the accusations, to the best of my knowledge.

 

In this little pissing match over military service, I do notice one thing: There are quite a few men who testify to Kerry's service and there are several official military records that cite his proficiency. I have not seen any fellow guardsmen step-up and testify about Bush either with regard to the AWOL claims, or his general ability. Maybe it is out there, but I have not seen it.

 

To me, it's ancient history either way. What I personally focus on (and this is almost certainly biased by my background of growing up as struggling lower middle class) is that Bush's rich/powerful daddy pulled strings to vault him over a long waiting list to ensure he got in the guard...a fairly safe haven, whereas Kerry volunteered to go to Vietnam. That contrast in actions tells me everything I need to know.

 

I still think we're screwed either way, they are both special interest whores. I am still voting Libertarian for Pres, Dem Senate, GOP House, GOP State Senate.

[willstrickland]

Fairweather, what is your take on this article from Reuters?

 

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=5761856

 

Headline is "Bush's Military Records Fail to Dispel AWOL Charges"

An excerpt:

 

July 23, 2004 WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Some of President Bush's missing Air National Guard records during the Vietnam War years, previously said to be destroyed, turned up on Friday but offered no new evidence to dispel charges by Democrats that he was absent without leave.

 

His whereabouts during his service as a pilot in the Texas Air National Guard in the United States during the Vietnam War have become an election-year issue. Bush's Democratic presidential challenger, John Kerry, is a decorated Vietnam War veteran.

 

The Pentagon, which had announced two weeks ago that the payroll records had been accidentally destroyed, blamed a clerical error for previous failure to find them.

 

In May 1972, Bush moved to Alabama to work on a political campaign and, he has said, to perform his Guard service there for a year. But other Guard officers have said they have no recollection of ever seeing him there.

 

Bush was the son of a U.S. congressman at a time when National Guard service was seen as a way for the privileged to avoid being drafted for Vietnam War duty.

 

Questions over his record resurfaced this year as Bush sought, in the midst of the Iraq war, to cast himself as a "war president" in his drive to win reelection on Nov. 2.

 

The documents released on Friday by the Pentagon included two faded computerized payroll sheets showing Bush was not paid during the latter part of 1972 and offer no evidence to place Bush in Alabama during the latter part of 1972.

 

Still, White House spokesman Trent Duffy said: "They show the president served in the military and completed his service, which is why he received an honorable discharge."

[AlpineK]

Fairweather is a shill for the republican party. Don't expect a real debate.

[cj001f]

In this little pissing match over military service, I do notice one thing: There are quite a few men who testify to Kerry's service and there are several official military records that cite his proficiency. I have not seen any fellow guardsmen step-up and testify about Bush either with regard to the AWOL claims, or his general ability. Maybe it is out there, but I have not seen it.

Gary Trudeau has offered $10k to anyone with proof of Bush's military service. So far no one's come forward.

 

I consider selfserving and manipulative unavoidables trait in a politician - which is the worst of the accusations against Kerry. Avoiding service and shirking duty, the allegations laden against Bush, are worse IMHO.

[gotterdamerung]

Fairweather is a shill for the republican party. Don't expect a real debate.

 

AlpineK is a shill for the democratic party. Don't expect a real debate.

[gotterdamerung]

In this little pissing match over military service, I do notice one thing: There are quite a few men who testify to Kerry's service and there are several official military records that cite his proficiency. I have not seen any fellow guardsmen step-up and testify about Bush either with regard to the AWOL claims, or his general ability. Maybe it is out there, but I have not seen it.

Gary Trudeau has offered $10k to anyone with proof of Bush's military service. So far no one's come forward.

 

I consider selfserving and manipulative unavoidables trait in a politician - which is the worst of the accusations against Kerry. Avoiding service and shirking duty, the allegations laden against Bush, are worse IMHO.

 

Kerry and Bush both suck ass. If this is the best our country can produce then we are on a downward spiral. Let's invade Canada.

[Dru]

tar baby effect you would never be able to leave

[Fairweather]

Fairweather is a shill for the republican party. Don't expect a real debate.

 

When I want real debate, I just talk to CrazyJZ.

[Fairweather]

Story is dated July 23, so the swift boat balance is missing. Reuters is the polar opposite of FOX. Left-biased. This story just demonstrates that the Kerry camp began this whole debate by sending their attack apparatus to question Bush's guard service long before his own service was questioned. How do you disprove a negative? There are actual witnesses in the swift boat debate. Decorated veterans, no less! And the Kerry camp is the team that continues to "clarify" and backpedal ie Christmas in Cambodia, etc!

 

How is it that Bush is somehow connected to this group? Michael Moore was given the royal treatment at the Democratic National Convention as I recall....but that's not an issue, I guess? Has Kerry disavowed Farenheit 9/11? No! He invited the guy to the party! And George Soros giving 15 million in both soft and hard $$$ is okay? Is he even an American citizen?...and is that legal re $$$ donations?

 

What's ironic here is that the more Kerry squirms, the more free air-time these ads get on the national media. The guy's so stupid, he's diggin' his own hole! All he has to do is STFU.

 

 

On another note; the title that johndavidjr chose for this thread is "swift boat swine". I would remind him that the members of this organization are likely sincere, and are all combat veterans themselves. Many are more decorated than Kerry himself. To refer to them as swine just provides us with a clear example of the love we so often see flowing from the left.

Edited August 21, 2004 by Fairweather

[olyclimber]

Holiday In Cambodia

 

So you been to school for a year or two

And you know you've seen it all

In daddy's car thinkin' you'll go far

Back east your type don't crawl

Play ethnicky jazz to parade your snazz

On your five grand stereo

Braggin that you know how the niggers feel cold

And the slums got so much soul

 

It's time to taste what you most fear

Right Guard will not help you here

Brace yourself, my dear

 

It's a holiday in Cambodia

It's tough kid, but it's life

It's a holiday in Cambodia

Don't forget to pack a wife

 

Your a star-belly sneech you suck like a leech

You want everyone to act like you

Kiss ass while you bitch so you can get rich

But your boss gets richer on you

Well you'll work harder with a gun in your back

For a bowl of rice a day

Slave for soldiers til you starve

Then your head skewered on a stake

Now you can go where people are one

Now you can go where they get things done

What you need my son:

 

Is a holiday in Cambodia

Where people dress in black

A holiday in Cambodia

Where you'll kiss ass or crack

 

Pol Pot, Pol Pot, Pol Pot, Pol Pot [etc.]

 

And it's a holiday in Cambodia

Where you'll do what you're told

A holiday in Cambodia

Where the slums got so much soul

 

I Fought the Law (and I Won)

Drinkin' beer in the hot sun

I fought the law and I won

 

I needed sex and I got mine

I fought the law and I won

 

The law don't mean shit if you've got the right friends

That's how the country's run

Twinkies are the best friend I've ever had

I fought the law

And I won

 

I blew George & Harvey's brains out with my six-gun

I fought the law and I won

 

Gonna write my book and make a million

I fought the law and I won

 

I'm the new folk hero of the Ku Klux Klan

My cop friends think that's fine

You can get away with murder if you've got a badge

I fought the law

And I won

I am the law

So I won

[To_The_Top]

OK, but is it worth disputing things 30 years ago verses current issues? Veitnam was a troubling time for the US, and both sides have shit stuffed in the closets. I say that more current issues are far more pressing than something that both did in thier 20's, which could be debated adnausem, while more important current issue that may get ignored.

PS: Holiday in Cambodia stuns.

Edited August 21, 2004 by To_The_Top

[Fairweather]

True, but it is Kerry who has made his military service a huge part of his campaign. He offered it up as a leadership qualifier. He had to know it would be questioned. Especially when you look at his behavior when he returned home.

[To_The_Top]

I will vote Willstrickland in 04! even though I climb with whitetrash.

FW, really both stand to lose if we all argue the Vietnam thing.

Edited August 21, 2004 by To_The_Top

[Ursa_Eagle]

At least Kerry has a respectable military service to talk about...

[AlpineK]

At least Kerry has a respectable military service to talk about...

 

Kerry served in Viet Nam, and there is no real debate about his medals. I'd also say that Bush served in the National Gaurd. I haven't seen any proof that he did or didn't go AWOL, so I wouldn't diss him on that account.

 

For me the difference is that Kerry served in a place where he faced real military danger while Bush served in Texas flying a plane that was in the process of being decommisioned from military use.

 

As far as this plays out today I believe that Kerry has some more real world experience and respect for the concequences of military action. Since the US is now in perpetual war I figure he wold make a better leader in that respect.

[larrythellama]

Why is the Kerry Campaign now filing a complaint with the FEC about the Swift Boat Ads? What a fucking crybaby! Lawsuit time!....That's what the Dem's do best! After the shit that Bush has put up with silently ala Michael Moore, dozens of outrageous books, moveon.org Nazi ads, slander about his guard service...and not like John Kerry.

Once again we see how liberals respond to free speech they don't like....

 

hey fairweather:

 

according to the Bush campaign, which filed its own FEC complaint earlier this year alleging "coordination" between Kerry and the left-leaning groups.

 

here

 

looks like they are both fucking crybabies.

 

[Dru]

Reuters is the polar opposite of FOX. Left-biased.

 

Is this why the US Army in Iraq has killed 12 journalists affiliated with Reuters and none with Fox (source: latest issue of the Economist)- thinning the herds of the enemy?

[willstrickland]

Looks like another hole in the Swift Boat Vets smear campaign. This will run in tomorrows Chicago Tribune:

 

The commander of a Navy swift boat who served alongside Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry during the Vietnam War stepped forward Saturday to dispute attacks challenging Kerry's integrity and war record.

 

William Rood, an editor on the Chicago Tribune's metropolitan desk, said he broke 35 years of silence about the Feb. 28, 1969, mission that resulted in Kerry's receiving a Silver Star because recent portrayals of Kerry's actions published in the best-selling book "Unfit for Command" are wrong and smear the reputations of veterans who served with Kerry.

 

Rood, who commanded one of three swift boats during that 1969 mission, said Kerry came under rocket and automatic weapons fire from Viet Cong forces and that Kerry devised an aggressive attack strategy that was praised by their superiors. He called allegations that Kerry's accomplishments were "overblown" untrue.

 

"The critics have taken pains to say they're not trying to cast doubts on the merit of what others did, but their version of events has splashed doubt on all of us. It's gotten harder and harder for those of us who were there to listen to accounts we know to be untrue, especially when they come from people who were not there," Rood said in a 1,700-word first-person account published in Sunday's Tribune.

 

Rood's recollection of what happened on that day at the southern tip of South Vietnam was backed by key military documents, including his citation for a Bronze Star he earned in the battle and a glowing after-action report written by the Navy captain who commanded his and Kerry's task force, who is now a critic of the Democratic candidate.

 

Rood's previously untold story and the documents shed new light on a key historical event that has taken center stage in an extraordinary political and media firestorm generated by a group calling itself the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth.

 

That is the lead story, here is part of the account that Rood gave, also in the Tribune as a separate story:

 

There were three swift boats on the river that day in Vietnam more than 35 years ago—three officers and 15 crew members. Only two of those officers remain to talk about what happened on February 28, 1969.

 

One is John Kerry, the Democratic presidential candidate who won a Silver Star for what happened on that date. I am the other.

 

For years, no one asked about those events. But now they are the focus of skirmishing in a presidential election with a group of swift boat veterans and others contending that Kerry didn't deserve the Silver Star for what he did on that day, or the Bronze Star and three Purple Hearts he was awarded for other actions.

 

Many of us wanted to put it all behind us—the rivers, the ambushes, the killing. Ever since that time, I have refused all requests for interviews about Kerry's service—even those from reporters at the Chicago Tribune, where I work.

 

But Kerry's critics, armed with stories I know to be untrue, have charged that the accounts of what happened were overblown. The critics have taken pains to say they're not trying to cast doubts on the merit of what others did, but their version of events has splashed doubt on all of us. It's gotten harder and harder for those of us who were there to listen to accounts we know to be untrue, especially when they come from people who were not there.

 

Even though Kerry's own crew members have backed him, the attacks have continued, and in recent days Kerry has called me and others who were with him in those days, asking that we go public with our accounts.

 

I can't pretend those calls had no effect on me, but that is not why I am writing this. What matters most to me is that this is hurting crewmen who are not public figures and who deserved to be honored for what they did. My intent is to tell the story here and to never again talk publicly about it.

 

I was part of the operation that led to Kerry's Silver Star. I have no firsthand knowledge of the events that resulted in his winning the Purple Hearts or the Bronze Star.

 

But on Feb. 28, 1969, I was officer in charge of PCF-23, one of three swift boats—including Kerry's PCF-94 and Lt. j.g. Donald Droz's PCF-43—that carried Vietnamese regional and Popular Force troops and a Navy demolition team up the Dong Cung, a narrow tributary of the Bay Hap River, to conduct a sweep in the area.

 

The approach of the noisy 50-foot aluminum boats, each driven by two huge 12-cylinder diesels and loaded down with six crew members, troops and gear, was no secret.

 

Ambushes were a virtual certainty, and that day was no exception.

 

Instructions from Kerry

 

The difference was that Kerry, who had tactical command of that particular operation, had talked to Droz and me beforehand about not responding the way the boats usually did to an ambush.

 

We agreed that if we were not crippled by the initial volley and had a clear fix on the location of the ambush, we would turn directly into it, focusing the boats' twin .50-caliber machine guns on the attackers and beaching the boats. We told our crews about the plan.

 

The Viet Cong in the area had come to expect that the heavily loaded boats would lumber on past an ambush, firing at the entrenched attackers, beaching upstream and putting troops ashore to sweep back down on the ambush site. Often, they were long gone by the time the troops got there.

 

The first time we took fire—the usual rockets and automatic weapons—Kerry ordered a "turn 90" and the three boats roared in on the ambush. It worked. We routed the ambush, killing three of the attackers. The troops, led by an Army adviser, jumped off the boats and began a sweep, which killed another half dozen VC, wounded or captured others and found weapons, blast masks and other supplies used to stage ambushes.

 

Meanwhile, Kerry ordered our boat to head upstream with his, leaving Droz's boat at the first site.

 

It happened again, another ambush. And again, Kerry ordered the turn maneuver, and again it worked. As we headed for the riverbank, I remember seeing a loaded B-40 launcher pointed at the boats. It wasn't fired as two men jumped up from their spider holes.

 

We called Droz's boat up to assist us, and Kerry, followed by one member of his crew, jumped ashore and chased a VC behind a hooch—a thatched hut—maybe 15 yards inland from the ambush site. Some who were there that day recall the man being wounded as he ran. Neither I nor Jerry Leeds, our boat's leading petty officer with whom I've checked my recollection of all these events, recalls that, which is no surprise. Recollections of those who go through experiences like that frequently differ.

 

With our troops involved in the sweep of the first ambush site, Richard Lamberson, a member of my crew, and I also went ashore to search the area. I was checking out the inside of the hooch when I heard gunfire nearby.

 

Not long after that, Kerry returned, reporting that he had killed the man he chased behind the hooch. He also had picked up a loaded B-40 rocket launcher, which we took back to our base in An Thoi after the operation.

 

John O'Neill, author of a highly critical account of Kerry's Vietnam service, describes the man Kerry chased as a "teenager" in a "loincloth." I have no idea how old the gunner Kerry chased that day was, but both Leeds and I recall that he was a grown man, dressed in the kind of garb the VC usually wore.

 

The man Kerry chased was not the "lone" attacker at that site, as O'Neill suggests. There were others who fled. There was also firing from the tree line well behind the spider holes and at one point, from the opposite riverbank as well. It was not the work of just one attacker.

 

Our initial reports of the day's action caused an immediate response from our task force headquarters in Cam Ranh Bay.

 

Congratulatory message

 

Known over radio circuits by the call sign "Latch," then-Capt. and now retired Rear Adm. Roy Hoffmann, the task force commander, fired off a message congratulating the three swift boats, saying at one point that the tactic of charging the ambushes was a "shining example of completely overwhelming the enemy" and that it "may be the most efficacious method of dealing with small numbers of ambushers."

 

Hoffmann has become a leading critic of Kerry's and now says that what the boats did on that day demonstrated Kerry's inclination to be impulsive to a fault.

 

Our decision to use that tactic under the right circumstances was not impulsive but was the result of discussions well beforehand and a mutual agreement of all three boat officers.

 

It was also well within the aggressive tradition that was embraced by the late Adm. Elmo Zumwalt, then commander of U.S. Naval Forces, Vietnam. Months before that day in February, a fellow boat officer, Michael Bernique, was summoned to Saigon to explain to top Navy commanders why he had made an unauthorized run up the Giang Thanh River, which runs along the Vietnam-Cambodia border. Bernique, who speaks French fluently, had been told by a source in Ha Tien at the mouth of the river that a VC tax collector was operating upstream.

 

Ignoring the prohibition against it, Bernique and his crew went upstream and routed the VC, pursuing and killing several.

 

Instead of facing disciplinary action as he had expected, Bernique was given the Silver Star, and Zumwalt ordered other swifts, which had largely patrolled coastal waters, into the rivers.

 

The decision sent a clear message, underscored repeatedly by Hoffmann's congratulatory messages, that aggressive patrolling was expected and that well-timed, if unconventional, tactics like Bernique's were encouraged.

 

What we did on Feb. 28, 1969, was well in line with the tone set by our top commanders.

 

Zumwalt made that clear when he flew down to our base at An Thoi off the southern tip of Vietnam to pin the Silver Star on Kerry and assorted Bronze Stars and commendation medals on the rest of us.

 

Error in citation

 

My Bronze Star citation, signed by Zumwalt, praised the charge tactic we used that day, saying the VC were "caught completely off guard."

 

There's at least one mistake in that citation. It incorrectly identifies the river where the main action occurred, a reminder that such documents were often done in haste and sometimes authored for their signers by staffers. It's a cautionary note for those trying to piece it all together. There's no final authority on something that happened so long ago—not the documents and not even the strained recollections of those of us who were there.

 

But I know that what some people are saying now is wrong. While they mean to hurt Kerry, what they're saying impugns others who are not in the public eye.

 

Men like Larry Lee, who was on our bow with an M-60 machine gun as we charged the riverbank, Kenneth Martin, who was in the .50-caliber gun tub atop our boat, and Benjamin Cueva, our engineman, who was at our aft gun mount suppressing the fire from the opposite bank.

 

Wayne Langhoffer and the other crewmen on Droz's boat went through even worse on April 12, 1969, when they saw Droz killed in a brutal ambush that left PCF-43 an abandoned pile of wreckage on the banks of the Duong Keo River. That was just a few months after the birth of his only child, Tracy.

 

The survivors of all these events are scattered across the country now.

 

Jerry Leeds lives in a tiny Kansas town where he built and sold a successful printing business. He owns a beautiful home with a lawn that sweeps to the edge of a small lake, which he also owns. Every year, flights of purple martins return to the stately birdhouses on the tall poles in his back yard.

 

Cueva, recently retired, has raised three daughters and is beloved by his neighbors for all the years he spent keeping their cars running. Lee is a senior computer programmer in Kentucky, and Lamberson finished a second military career in the Army.

 

With the debate over that long-ago day in February, they're all living that war another time. Copyright © 2004, Chicago Tribune

[Fairweather]

Holy shit! Bob Dole has joined the debate! I've never know this guy to be a partisan extreme....

 

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5771731/