JoshK Posted August 9, 2002 Share Posted August 9, 2002 I'd be curious to get all y'all's opinion on using wire gate biners. I know people that won't use them for anything, people who will use them only on the rope side of draws and, finally, those who use them both on the rope and pro side of draws. I, personally, use them on the rope side of my draws. Of the people i know who won't use them, their argument is somehow if the caribiner gets turned around and a fall is generated against the gate, you stand a much better chance of a wire gate failing than a traditional full gate. Any thoughts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chucK Posted August 9, 2002 Share Posted August 9, 2002 I'm not sure why you think the wire gate is more likely to fail than a standard biner gate. The weak point on a standard biner gate is the pin that fits in the notch. How wide is that thing? Hey, wattayaknow? It's as wide as the wire on the wiregate biners! I would not be surprised if the gate-failing strength of wiregates are higher (i.e. better) than standards. If anything, I would be more worried about them on the rope end because the wiregates are like bentgates in that they are easier to clip. That makes them easier to unclip on the rope end. I don't think this is a problem at all though as long as you don't use those dumb stiffy dogbone draws. [ 08-09-2002, 02:10 PM: Message edited by: chucK ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DPS Posted August 9, 2002 Share Posted August 9, 2002 The tests that I saw suggested a traditional gate is more suseptible to total failure when cross loaded, whereas the wire gate merely deforms. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juneriver Posted August 9, 2002 Share Posted August 9, 2002 I saw test results similar to what Dan described. I'd use them like a regular biner. No problems with them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr_Flash_Amazing Posted August 9, 2002 Share Posted August 9, 2002 Ah, but they are also less prone to good ol' gate lash in a fall, making them a good bit safer than bent-gates or standard straight-gates. Plus bent-gates are more likely to open because there's something for the rope to hook over, whereas wire-gates are more like straight-gates that way. The Doctor's rack (i.e. 14 quickdraws) is all wires on the rope end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkrueger Posted August 9, 2002 Share Posted August 9, 2002 From the specs I've looked at, wire gates seem to be the same strength as standard biners. I've heard that wire gates may actually be safer because the wire will bend instead of snap? Perhaps it is a psychological thing... I use wire gates to rack my cams, and after that I'll use them about anywhere I have to! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fern Posted August 9, 2002 Share Posted August 9, 2002 Hotwire Questions and Answers by Chris Harmston Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iain Posted August 9, 2002 Share Posted August 9, 2002 quote: Originally posted by fern: Hotwire Questions and Answers by Chris Harmston That dude is the biggest internet geek, even more than us! He's everywhere. for the better I might add, thanks for ze link. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkrueger Posted August 9, 2002 Share Posted August 9, 2002 Yeah fern, great link. Hey DFA, reassemble your draws so you have 7 wire gates on both ends and you're alpine ready! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattp Posted August 9, 2002 Share Posted August 9, 2002 quote: Originally posted by chucK: don't use those dumb stiffy dogbone draws. ChucK is like a dog with a bone on this point. Just think about "draws" and you'll get this admonishment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icegirl Posted August 9, 2002 Share Posted August 9, 2002 Nothing like looking up and seeing the rope unclip itself from the quickdraw/ice screw above you to make you start looking into the gate lash issue... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoshK Posted August 9, 2002 Author Share Posted August 9, 2002 Yeah, all this is in line with what I was thinking. Chuck, I wasn't saying I thought they would fail more easily, just that somebody I know who doesn't use them thought that. I agree, I can't find any reason why the would, and I've also heard the argument that the wire bending actually makes the safer in cross loading situations. The reason I brought this up is I recently got some new 'biners, and I bought the BD neutrinos. Man, they are light. I did the quick math and using them for every application they can be used sure saves a lot of weight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg_W Posted August 9, 2002 Share Posted August 9, 2002 quote: Originally posted by icegirl: Nothing like looking up and seeing the rope unclip itself from the quickdraw/ice screw above you to make you start looking into the gate lash issue... I might be a bit ignorant here (go ahead and hit me while I'm vulnerable), but I am not too clear on the "gate lash" phenomenon. Could someone clue me in on the actual event and what situations would lead to it? Thanks. Greg W Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattp Posted August 9, 2002 Share Posted August 9, 2002 Greg: "Gate Lash" is the phenomenon of the vibration cause by the rope running through a biner during a fall actually causing the gate to open. Pros of Wire Gates: lighter do not flutter (gate does not open due to vibrations during a fall) easier to clip may be safer when cross-loaded against gate other??? Cons: aggressive hook on gatestock catches on things (e.g., not as convenient for racking stoppers) more likely to unclip stoppers, nut took, other things get tangled in the wire gate when you jumble your rack belayer cannot hear the "clip" other??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg_W Posted August 9, 2002 Share Posted August 9, 2002 That's what I thought. Thanks, Matt. Matt, here's some TAD for you: Greg W [ 08-09-2002, 02:36 PM: Message edited by: Greg W ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iain Posted August 9, 2002 Share Posted August 9, 2002 Apparently, the intense vibration in a fall can cause a momentary opening of a gate, which greatly reduces the strength of the carabiner (< 50%, usually). If the carabiner is loaded at this time, problems may result. This could also be caused by a strike against a hard object. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iain Posted August 9, 2002 Share Posted August 9, 2002 classic, I knew that would happen, oh well it's another opportunity for shudder to think to make a stage appearance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkrueger Posted August 9, 2002 Share Posted August 9, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Greg W: ...I am not too clear on the "gate lash" phenomenon...[/QB] Take a carabiner in one hand, and smack it against your other hand, gate said up, hard enough to make it snap open. Because wire gates have less mass, it takes a greater force to open them, thereby making them less prone to gate lash. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg_W Posted August 9, 2002 Share Posted August 9, 2002 quote: Originally posted by jkrueger: Take a carabiner in one hand, and smack it against your other hand, gate said up, hard enough to make it snap open. Because wire gates have less mass, it takes a greater force to open them, thereby making them less prone to gate lash. Makes sense, but I still have one question. Can I use Trask's head instead of my hand to perform this test? Greg W Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iain Posted August 9, 2002 Share Posted August 9, 2002 yes but I recommend a steel rescue NFPA rated CMC locker for that task. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juneriver Posted August 9, 2002 Share Posted August 9, 2002 [ 08-09-2002, 03:10 PM: Message edited by: Juneriver ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fern Posted August 9, 2002 Share Posted August 9, 2002 3 additional notes to mattp's handy summary quote: Originally posted by mattp: Pros: <snip> do not flutter (gate does not open due to vibrations during a fall) The typical causes of gate flutter are the rope running through the 'biner as the slack comes out of the system in a fall, and the spine of the biner getting struck on the rock as the 'draw gets flipped around by the rope (eg. pulling up slack to clip). But in addition really violent gate flutter can be caused by the stitches ripping out on a screamer ... bad time to have the gate open Another pro (in my experience) is that wiregates don't ice up badly. quote: Originally posted by mattp: Cons: aggressive hook on gatestock catches on things (e.g., not as convenient for racking stoppers) <snip> DMM makes a wiregate keylock biner (cheaper than BD neutrinos). Maybe other manufacturers as well. Maybe the prisoners will start making these too? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Figger_Eight Posted August 9, 2002 Share Posted August 9, 2002 I thought "gate lash" was when the carabiner the rope is clipped to is facing the wrong way. If the route is moving to the right and the gate is on the right (as the carabiner is resting against the rock), the rope can unclip itself if the climber takes a leader fall. That might be called something else though... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattp Posted August 9, 2002 Share Posted August 9, 2002 I think that is just called "the wrong way to do it." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chucK Posted August 9, 2002 Share Posted August 9, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Figger Eight: If the route is moving to the right and the gate is on the right (as the carabiner is resting against the rock), the rope can unclip itself if the climber takes a leader fall. This won't be as much of an issue if you don't use those stupid stiffy dogbone draws. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.