Opinions on wire gate caribiners

[JoshK]

I'd be curious to get all y'all's opinion on using wire gate biners. I know people that won't use them for anything, people who will use them only on the rope side of draws and, finally, those who use them both on the rope and pro side of draws. I, personally, use them on the rope side of my draws.

 

Of the people i know who won't use them, their argument is somehow if the caribiner gets turned around and a fall is generated against the gate, you stand a much better chance of a wire gate failing than a traditional full gate.

 

Any thoughts?

[chucK]

I'm not sure why you think the wire gate is more likely to fail than a standard biner gate. The weak point on a standard biner gate is the pin that fits in the notch. How wide is that thing? Hey, wattayaknow? It's as wide as the wire on the wiregate biners!

 

I would not be surprised if the gate-failing strength of wiregates are higher (i.e. better) than standards.

 

If anything, I would be more worried about them on the rope end because the wiregates are like bentgates in that they are easier to clip. That makes them easier to unclip on the rope end. I don't think this is a problem at all though as long as you don't use those dumb stiffy dogbone draws.

 

[ 08-09-2002, 02:10 PM: Message edited by: chucK ]

[DPS]

The tests that I saw suggested a traditional gate is more suseptible to total failure when cross loaded, whereas the wire gate merely deforms.

[Juneriver]

I saw test results similar to what Dan described.

 

I'd use them like a regular biner. No problems with them

[Dr_Flash_Amazing]

Ah, but they are also less prone to good ol' gate lash in a fall, making them a good bit safer than bent-gates or standard straight-gates. Plus bent-gates are more likely to open because there's something for the rope to hook over, whereas wire-gates are more like straight-gates that way.

 

The Doctor's rack (i.e. 14 quickdraws) is all wires on the rope end.

[jkrueger]

From the specs I've looked at, wire gates seem to be the same strength as standard biners. I've heard that wire gates may actually be safer because the wire will bend instead of snap? Perhaps it is a psychological thing...

 

I use wire gates to rack my cams, and after that I'll use them about anywhere I have to!

[fern]

Hotwire Questions and Answers by Chris Harmston

[iain]

quote:

---

Originally posted by fern:

Hotwire Questions and Answers by Chris Harmston

---

That dude is the biggest internet geek, even more than us! He's everywhere. for the better I might add, thanks for ze link.

[jkrueger]

Yeah fern, great link.

 

Hey DFA, reassemble your draws so you have 7 wire gates on both ends and you're alpine ready!

[mattp]

quote:

---

Originally posted by chucK:

don't use those dumb stiffy dogbone draws.

---

ChucK is like a dog with a bone on this point. Just think about "draws" and you'll get this admonishment.

[icegirl]

Nothing like looking up and seeing the rope unclip itself from the quickdraw/ice screw above you to make you start looking into the gate lash issue...

[JoshK]

Yeah, all this is in line with what I was thinking. Chuck, I wasn't saying I thought they would fail more easily, just that somebody I know who doesn't use them thought that. I agree, I can't find any reason why the would, and I've also heard the argument that the wire bending actually makes the safer in cross loading situations.

 

The reason I brought this up is I recently got some new 'biners, and I bought the BD neutrinos. Man, they are light. I did the quick math and using them for every application they can be used sure saves a lot of weight.

[Greg_W]

quote:

---

Originally posted by icegirl:

Nothing like looking up and seeing the rope unclip itself from the quickdraw/ice screw above you to make you start looking into the gate lash issue...

---

I might be a bit ignorant here (go ahead and hit me while I'm vulnerable), but I am not too clear on the "gate lash" phenomenon. Could someone clue me in on the actual event and what situations would lead to it? Thanks.

 

Greg W

[mattp]

Greg:

 

"Gate Lash" is the phenomenon of the vibration cause by the rope running through a biner during a fall actually causing the gate to open.

 

Pros of Wire Gates:

lighter

do not flutter (gate does not open due to vibrations during a fall)

easier to clip

may be safer when cross-loaded against gate

other???

 

Cons:

aggressive hook on gatestock catches on things (e.g., not as convenient for racking stoppers)

more likely to unclip

stoppers, nut took, other things get tangled in the wire gate when you jumble your rack

belayer cannot hear the "clip"

other???

[Greg_W]

That's what I thought. Thanks, Matt.

 

Matt, here's some TAD for you:

 

Greg W

 

[ 08-09-2002, 02:36 PM: Message edited by: Greg W ]

[iain]

Apparently, the intense vibration in a fall can cause a momentary opening of a gate, which greatly reduces the strength of the carabiner (< 50%, usually). If the carabiner is loaded at this time, problems may result. This could also be caused by a strike against a hard object.

[iain]

classic, I knew that would happen, oh well it's another opportunity for shudder to think to make a stage appearance.

[jkrueger]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Greg W:

...I am not too clear on the "gate lash" phenomenon...[/QB]

---

Take a carabiner in one hand, and smack it against your other hand, gate said up, hard enough to make it snap open.

 

Because wire gates have less mass, it takes a greater force to open them, thereby making them less prone to gate lash.

[Greg_W]

quote:

---

Originally posted by jkrueger:

Take a carabiner in one hand, and smack it against your other hand, gate said up, hard enough to make it snap open.

 

Because wire gates have less mass, it takes a greater force to open them, thereby making them less prone to gate lash.

---

Makes sense, but I still have one question. Can I use Trask's head instead of my hand to perform this test?

 

Greg W

[iain]

yes but I recommend a steel rescue NFPA rated CMC locker for that task.

 

[Juneriver]

 

[ 08-09-2002, 03:10 PM: Message edited by: Juneriver ]

[fern]

3 additional notes to mattp's handy summary

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by mattp:

Pros:

<snip>

do not flutter (gate does not open due to vibrations during a fall)

---

The typical causes of gate flutter are the rope running through the 'biner as the slack comes out of the system in a fall, and the spine of the biner getting struck on the rock as the 'draw gets flipped around by the rope (eg. pulling up slack to clip). But in addition really violent gate flutter can be caused by the stitches ripping out on a screamer ... bad time to have the gate open

 

Another pro (in my experience) is that wiregates don't ice up badly.

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by mattp:

Cons:

aggressive hook on gatestock catches on things (e.g., not as convenient for racking stoppers)

<snip>

---

DMM makes a wiregate keylock biner (cheaper than BD neutrinos). Maybe other manufacturers as well.

Maybe the prisoners will start making these too?

[Figger_Eight]

I thought "gate lash" was when the carabiner the rope is clipped to is facing the wrong way. If the route is moving to the right and the gate is on the right (as the carabiner is resting against the rock), the rope can unclip itself if the climber takes a leader fall. That might be called something else though...

[mattp]

I think that is just called "the wrong way to do it."

[chucK]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Figger Eight:

If the route is moving to the right and the gate is on the right (as the carabiner is resting against the rock), the rope can unclip itself if the climber takes a leader fall.

---

This won't be as much of an issue if you don't use those stupid stiffy dogbone draws.