catbirdseat Posted July 6, 2004 Share Posted July 6, 2004 I mentioned this in a thread on the Pearly Gates in the Rock Climbing forum, but I thought it might make a topic for discussion. At PG, we met more than one party with beginners. One guy had a fellow on a 5.8 slab route on is very first day climbing. I asked, "is he a gym climber?", and was told, no, it was his first day ever. The reason I asked was that they guy had left all the draws on the bolts. We asked if we could climb the route and the guy was cool. My partner clipped his draws and then I cleaned them and returned them after we rapped off. On another occasion we watched another climber following on a 5.8 trad route and again she left all the gear in place so that no one could get on the route. I would never clip someone else's trad gear, obviously, so we waited until they could rap down and clean it. So I'm wondering if it is really all that wise, not to mention ethical to take rank beginners to a place that doesn't even have any climbs below 5.7 and where the routes are long enough that communication can be an issue and where you can't always see your partner? If it were me, I'd take a beginner to one of the roadside crags first and teach him/her to clean first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg_W Posted July 6, 2004 Share Posted July 6, 2004 I don't see a problem with taking beginners to PG; given that they are fit and up for a challenge. However, before we left the ground, I would be sure to go over EXACTLY what is going to happen, what their part is and what I am going to do. I have used this method before and it works. I would say the fault was with the leader. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lambone Posted July 6, 2004 Share Posted July 6, 2004 ethical??? gimme a freaking break. dude, share the cliff with everyone else, just because you are better or more experienced then someone else doesn't give you more of a right to be there... If you don't like waiting in line to get on climbs, don't go to popular areas, it is as simple as that. If I sound a bit abrasive it is because I once ran into some assholes in Washington with your attitude. My wife and I took my friend Tom on Saber for his first rock climb ever. He climbed in between us and my wife cleaned the gear, but he was very slow climbing. A party came up behind us and started bitching at us for bringing a beginer up a multi-pitch route. I was like fuck off the climb is rated 5.4, if you are too cool for it go somewhere else and leave us alone, we were here first. ok, end rant. One funny thing that happened was that when we got to the top...Tom was shocked to see the descent trail and asked us why we hadn't just walked up to the top! He was honestly mad at us for not telling him there was a trail to the summit! sheesh... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted July 6, 2004 Share Posted July 6, 2004 ooooh, a 5.8 slab on his first day climbing...what a challenge i've seen people TR-flash 5.10 on their first day climbing outside Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catbirdseat Posted July 6, 2004 Author Share Posted July 6, 2004 (edited) What is my attitude? I didn't bitch or complain to anyone. We got along great with all the other climbers there and everyone had a great time. Rather than wait in line and stew, we just moved on to a different climb that was open. No problem. Saber is a route that you would expect to find first time climbers on. Anyone who would bitch about a slow party on that one needs an attitude adjustment. Edited July 6, 2004 by catbirdseat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted July 6, 2004 Share Posted July 6, 2004 so why the bitchy post then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg_W Posted July 6, 2004 Share Posted July 6, 2004 The point is that not everything is an ethical debate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catbirdseat Posted July 6, 2004 Author Share Posted July 6, 2004 so why the bitchy post then? I didn't mean it to be bitchy. Let me rephrase my question. Is there anywhere that is not acceptable to take beginners? Dru, there are definitely people out there with natural athletic ability who can get up 5.10 on their first try. More power to them. I just get the impression that some guys get an ego boost by telling their friends how hard their beginner was able to climb. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted July 6, 2004 Share Posted July 6, 2004 Rather than you deciding where it is or is not acceptable to take beginners why not just get off your high horse and accept that some bumbly beginners will have epics trying to tr the lower part of mounties doom and others will be perfectly fine climbing outer space on their first day outside? maybe you can be the crag police stopping violators at the trailhead and saying how the cliff up ahead is off limits to beginners and checking for Stoned Gardens or Pervertical World belay cards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slaphappy Posted July 6, 2004 Share Posted July 6, 2004 What I don't understand is why in a crag setting where pitches are set at 100' or less, why so many people feel the need to belay at the top. Why not rap down clean the pitch and TR the newbie through the chains? I know, I know, your not supposed to TR through the chains, screw that, they don't wear that fast and they are cheap. I'll gladly replace any chain at PG that wears to the point of danger, let me know if one gets bad. It is far easier, not to mention more comfortable, to belay on the ground. Plus communication is a non issue. Always seems silly to me. I do feel PG is a fine place to take beginers. Safe and plentiful anchors, high quality moderates and a wide variety of styles make it ideal. *There are over 30 pitches at the Gates, I doubt some of the hard 10's or 11's had traffic. Put up a TR and learn how climb harder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al_Pine Posted July 6, 2004 Share Posted July 6, 2004 It certainly is annoying when someone is out of their league plugging up a popular route. But whattaya gonna do? Perhaps, you could do as I do. Just think back to the times when you yourself have been the plug. That usually induces a bit of sympathy, empathy, and enough modesty to prevent you from being a jerk. Then you can calmly decide whether you want to wait, politely ask to pass, or go elsewhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ken4ord Posted July 6, 2004 Share Posted July 6, 2004 Shit it is really up to the leader being able to assess their partner abilities. I have taken beginners to strickly TR areas and then I have gone with beginners out on long demanding alpine climbs and to hard sport areas. I think it is sort of stupid to dedicate an area to beginners and other place not for beginners. Doing that would be like what the Mounties do with their courses. Everybody is different in what they can handle for their first time or first several times out. It really depends on what you think your partner can handle and what you can handle. When it come to crag or climb access, first come first serve. That doesn't mean you have a right to be rude and an ass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fenderfour Posted July 6, 2004 Share Posted July 6, 2004 Sucks to be CBS... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ken4ord Posted July 6, 2004 Share Posted July 6, 2004 I don't think anybody is crucifying him, he asked a question and people are responding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ketch Posted July 6, 2004 Share Posted July 6, 2004 I don't know if there is a best beginner spot. I take a lot of newbies out. It depends a bit on the group and there abilities. I think it mostly depends on the rep that the "host" wants. I frequently take groups of kids that have never been on rock or at best have only tried the "wall" at the local Y. If I showed up at index with 11 or 12 of these nice noise makers and started pluggin up the works, they would still have a great time. I on the other hand would catch flack and rightly so. If I showed up at the top of Mt Erie with the same group don't flip me any shit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AaronB Posted July 6, 2004 Share Posted July 6, 2004 One funny thing that happened was that when we got to the top...Tom was shocked to see the descent trail and asked us why we hadn't just walked up to the top! He was honestly mad at us for not telling him there was a trail to the summit! sheesh... Thats exactly what my dad said the ONLY time I took him climbing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alpinfox Posted July 8, 2004 Share Posted July 8, 2004 What I don't understand is why in a crag setting where pitches are set at 100' or less, why so many people feel the need to belay at the top. Why not rap down clean the pitch and TR the newbie through the chains? I know, I know, your not supposed to TR through the chains, screw that, they don't wear that fast and they are cheap. I'll gladly replace any chain at PG that wears to the point of danger, let me know if one gets bad. It is far easier, not to mention more comfortable, to belay on the ground. Plus communication is a non issue. Always seems silly to me. TRing through the chains sux. Chain anchors cost about $20 and yes the DO wear out. It also gets your rope dirtier (steel chains that have been out in the elements put more shit on your rope than clean aluminum biners). When repeatedly TRing a climb with a beginner who doesn't know how to clean an anchor, you can attach two draws to the bolts AND run the rop through the chains so that rope is weighting the draws. All the newbie has to do is take the draws off and lower off the chains when everyone is done climbing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thrutch Posted July 8, 2004 Share Posted July 8, 2004 1st route i ever climbed on was a 5.10 OUTSIDE to be matter of factly, after much swearing, no style and little to zero ethics(the way I still climb to this day) I accomplised it. I don't know what you are worried about, especially since you are a mountie and we all know their deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hanger Posted July 8, 2004 Share Posted July 8, 2004 The fact is...first ones to the route get dibs. Hell, they can stay there all day if they want. Many areas have "classic" routes. These are NOT the routes to gang rope. I've known folks who have flown all the way across the US to climb certain routes at J-Tree in SoCal...just to find a boyscout troop sitting at the base with ropes going in every direction. I've also seen folks practicing aid on a 5 star 5.8 with several teams backed up waiting for them to finish. That's total BS in my opinion...but with that said, they were the first ones there. I still think it's bad form. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uncle_Tricky Posted July 8, 2004 Share Posted July 8, 2004 Ten Step Program: Take beginners in sneakers into the mountains (the journey grasshoppa), find a route that is uncrowded, give them a harness, show them how to belay, tell them not to leave anything behind or they will pay for it, climb a multipitch route you think they could climb, place gear that an aluminum medalist at the special olympics could clean, top out on a real geographic feature with stupenfuckintacular views, roast, descend to hearty meal and beerverages. Either they will love to climb or they will never step out of the godblessedcar in the mountains again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Szyjakowski Posted July 8, 2004 Share Posted July 8, 2004 that is exactly what kevbone and i did this weekend at wapass except kat has all the goods other than a mountain under her belt. cheers tricky Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catbirdseat Posted July 8, 2004 Author Share Posted July 8, 2004 1st route i ever climbed on was a 5.10 OUTSIDE to be matter of factly, after much swearing, no style and little to zero ethics(the way I still climb to this day) I accomplised it. I don't know what you are worried about, especially since you are a mountie and we all know their deal. Mercy, you have cut me to the quick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drederek Posted July 8, 2004 Share Posted July 8, 2004 Playground Point is an excellent place to take beginners. I think a bit of hike is good for them to warm up and really look around. The routes are mostly short and easy and I doubt any will achieve 'classic' status. It also gets full sun. If they can survive a day up there and still want to climb then they will probably stick with it. If they thought the hike too long, the routes dirty and it was just way too hot good riddance there are plenty of climbers allready. CBS I don't believe subtle sarcasm is very effective here but I enjoy it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slaphappy Posted July 8, 2004 Share Posted July 8, 2004 Thanks Alpinfox, I'm well aware of how much a chain setup costs and you're wrong, it's far closer to $10 than your estimated $20, even if you include the hangers/bolts. I do agree that your draw and prethreaded chain dealio is a better option. I still think you (and others ) make way to big a deal about TRing through chains. It's my problem if my rope gets dirty from doing it. We're not talking about 5 gallon buckets at Smith that receives 20 ascents an hour every day of the year, we're talking about the Pearly Gates, far less traffic. As I stated, if the chains up there are wearing out I'll gladly replace them. Drederek- I agree Playground Point is nearly the ideal spot to take people who have not climbed. Hard to imagine someone not enjoying that as their first experience. However it does lack cracks which makes the Gates a good early destination as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alpinfox Posted July 8, 2004 Share Posted July 8, 2004 (edited) Thanks Alpinfox, I'm well aware of how much a chain setup costs and you're wrong, it's far closer to $10 than your estimated $20, even if you include the hangers/bolts. Slappy, I'd like to know where you shop. Seriously... if you have a good source for getting anchor hardware, please send me a PM. Retail for hangers is $2.50 each, and its about the same for a bolt (Powers expansion). That's $10 right there just for the anchor bolts. But of course, you shouldn't need to replace the hangers+bolts on an anchor due to TRing through the chains. You can buy standard steel chain and a couple of snaplinks to replace worn anchors and that would be pretty cheap, but the rock climbing specific chain setups like the Fixe one below retail for about $10-15 each. You are PROBABLY right that not enough people will ever TR through the chains at PG to wear out the anchors, but in my opinion, it's a bad practice and I try to encourage new climbers not to get in the habit of doing it. Cheers edit: By the way, all the reasons you listed for the superiority of the "slingshot belay" setup (belayer on ground) are right on. The only reason I can think of why someone might want to belay from above is to show a newbie how it works so they are ready for multipitch stuff. Edited July 8, 2004 by Alpinfox Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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