Oh, ya thanks....

[Al_Pine]

What do you guys think about Lovin' Arms or the Grand Wall? Both like Slappy's example, but on a different scale.

[Dane]

THe routes were altered for convenience, not to reduce their difficulty...

 

Sorry Dude that is BS. The routes under discussion were simply altered to make them easier for the climbers invloved. This "community service" nonsense is BS. Like you said they aren't .14/.15s. But lets be clear, numbers don't justify trashing the resource. There was never a reason to do the damage that was done except to claim some lame FA by chipping and bolting on holds.

 

Marty suggested these actions in his guide book and got a good number of followers to follow his examples and act upon his advice.

[slaphappy]

I don't think Lovin Arms is 5.17Z, 5.11 is far different...

[Al_Pine]

OK, then what do you think about that yarding bolt? Skips a 5.11 move, when you could just climb up a little then cut over and do the same thing, but then you have to miss a hard 10c move.

 

What about the Grand Wall? A bunch of moderate pitches with at least one section that's close to 5.17, "bolted for convenience".

 

I'm not sure what I think about all this, but it's pretty easy to come up with some examples to rattle some of these rigid ethical proclamations.

[Dane]

Dishman and Lovin Arms? No comparison..

Bad analogy IMO.

 

GW? What you want to chip the rope to 5.7?

 

Chipping boils down to one of two things..either can climb it or you can't.

 

If chipping is acceptable then no one gets to climb better than the chipper. Pretty sad.

 

What Marty misses is he gets to climb a few .12s because I didn't chip. Poor bastards coming up have to climb some shitty .12 because Marty and pals were egotistical pussies and chipped.

[Al_Pine]

Dishman and Lovin Arms? No comparison..

 

I think you are taking Marty's argument here!

[Dane]

Actually I am not. But I can see how you might think I was.

 

Dishman is an eye sore. Lots of damage and lots of "aids" added to climbers wanting to make the climbing easier in every avenue, mentally and physically.

 

D-H/Loving arms on the other hand, you are hard pressed to see where the rock has been altered. I haven't grabbed any gear or weighted pro on D-H/LA. So no clue on the yard bolt.

 

Pin scars on a natural line and may be a few extra hammers blows isn't a piece of plastic or first knuckle chipped incuts on a blank wall.

 

If I missed something on Davis-Holland/ LA let me know.

Certainly could have been chipped intentionally at the traverse. I couldn't tell/didn't notice when I climbed past.

 

Lots of climbs have been altered over the years. I can give a list longer than this thread if I wanted to look. But pin scars aren't intentionally made to be holds (and if they were it was generally condemned)

 

So sure it is degrees that count. D-H/LA is a degree most accept as are most of the harder cracks in the valley.

 

A line of artificail holds up a blank piece of virgin granite is when I say..."whoa"... too far. That is the case of the 60' of granite at Dishman.

[Dru]

OK, then what do you think about that yarding bolt? Skips a 5.11 move, when you could just climb up a little then cut over and do the same thing, but then you have to miss a hard 10c move.

 

What about the Grand Wall? A bunch of moderate pitches with at least one section that's close to 5.17, "bolted for convenience".

 

I'm not sure what I think about all this, but it's pretty easy to come up with some examples to rattle some of these rigid ethical proclamations.

 

the grand goes free at 13b with a v6 slab move crux. so much for your bogus v17 and probably a lot of other "its unfreeable so i chipped it" lines.

 

chippers are weak.

[RuMR]

yah...fred rouhling...he's my definition of weak

 

[insert dripping sarcasm gremlin here]

[Dane]

chippers are weak.

 

nice...

[RuMR]

nice what?

[Marty]

Dane,

You still haven't called me back yet and I don't know your phone #. You and I should talk face to face rather than in this public forum, mostly because I think we take things quickly typed a little differently than they actually mean. Also my guidebook was out after the majority or the retrobolting was done. Lots of people wished the routes were less scary to lead and the idea fermented for many years. My guidebook does not endorse chipping and if you will read the whole thing there are several little hints for people to stay away. Take a look at what I wrote for Unchained, the aid route at Dishman. That route is probably possible but there is one hell of a dyno off crap holds. I've tried it (I didn't bolt this one either Dane. In fact there are only 3 routes there with my steel in them. Hair of the Dog, Martinangelo's David, and the project to the right of Marinangleo)

 

I think if you guys had chipped those routes back then we still might be at this juncture anyway. Say that I thought I could do the route without the chipped holds and I filled your chipped holds in and climbed the route, thus claiming it as mine, would you be angry or how would you feel about it now?

 

Dane, there is no doubt in my mind that you are a bold climber and a good climber. I have heard many tales of the crazy stuff you have done. I have seen and been on some of your routes at Chimney and I know that you have more control of your emotions than I. I'll admit that I don't like facing death or perceived death in climbing situations. I have never trained my mind for it and rarely seek out such excursions. Most of the people that climb today will never realize your level of mental control because climbing in most areas has been sanitized. This is good and bad. Good because lots of people mean crags stay open (An intrest group that fights when stuff gets shut down). Bad becase more people means more ideas and things happen.

 

For sure you and Larry have had your glory stripped from you because of the retrofit. Now people who go up the route won't realize how scary it was for the FA. They won't know what it takes mentally to do that route, they will now only know what it takes physically. A dimension is lost and I see that. But Dane you should realize that most of the people around here would never even lead your route at Dishman anyway because they lack the intensity you had. Hell, there's a lot of physically capable people that could climb at Dishman but they choose to toprope at Mini because they are scared to lead even on bolts.

 

I would like to come to some sort of compromise with the bolt thing. I propose that we mark all the old bolt placements with a special type of hanger. Maybe even petzl glue ins since those last forever. We could put the old pins in that were replaced as well. This way one could lead the route as it was and see what it took to do the FA the way you quys did it. It could also be led as a sport route or just top roped. Everyone is satisfied and harmony restored.

 

Anyway, give me a call. Marty

[drater]

Blowboarder you are extremely fair today and your TOOL reference even cracked me up. I'll have you know that I really am not a big fan of chipping, but am honest enough to admit that it happens and can be benificial in certain instances, (and detrimental in other instances).

I really won't be coming over soon but I might some day to do some of those trad routes in that certain canyon you guys seem so gaurded about. Maybe we'll meet. Since I've been Devils advocating a bit I'll bet our ethics aren't tooo far apart.

 

Marty, grab the rack & head on over. Just leave the Bosch & bolts at home. No use wasting good money equipping routes someone will promptly remove. Not that I haven't wanted to bolt some amazing lines there, I just have to respect the ethic the place was developed in by the people that turned me onto climbing and the area.

 

Speaking of Omak and gear routes, you should check out Omak Crack.FA by Dave Jones (Cochise Stronghold hardman that lived in area back in early 90's). Rated it at "hard" 12a but I think that some sandbagging was in effect. It's spanked me every time on it, and I've onsited trad routes in Yosemite just below that grade. After working some 13a cracks in the Valley & Spain, I think that's closer to actual grade than 12a.

 

Bring a #5 Camelot (you'll be glad you lugged the fukker up that far) but please, once again, leave the bolting kit at home. This area isn't on private property but on Tribal Land (who consider the rock more sacred even than the staunchest traditionalist) and a bolting spree back in the mid 90's got the area shut down. Hard work & close friendships have opened it back up, but must be treated with respect to maintain access.

 

I would like to see what someone of your climbing ability thinks of OC, as it has never been onsited and required years of working the route by some solid 5.12 climbers for the redpoints. Which I still can't claim.

 

Couple other quality routes hidden among all the choss as well, watch out for snakes and loose rock.

 

Does trundling count as chipping? If so, I'm guilty as hell as well.

 

Marty, as I awoke in front of my keyboard at 10:15 this morning, (sweaty, naked, smelling like bad sushi) I realized that when I fell asleep (passed out) at 4am that I must have been sleep-posting again. Some people sleepwalk, I sleep-post. No more smoking hash & taking absinthe shots with those sluts from the Stateline for me!!! (I swear)

 

The last thing I remember was being in a Briana Banks chatroom but I must have clicked to cascadeclimbers.com in my daze. So, let me clear a few things up, as most of that post was my subconsious mind fantasizing.

 

1) There is no rock or rock climbers in the Okanogan. Except maybe up at Skaha, but that rumor is unsubstantiated.

 

2) If there were any rock there, it would be shit and totally unfit for climbing of any sort.

 

3) The only crack worth climbing in Omak is up the backside of this 300 pound Indian girl named Josie, and thats only if you don't mind a little copenhagen while you're getting your groove on. Long live the Omak Stampede!!!

 

4) Wasn't Davie Jones the drummer for the Monkeys? I'm gonna have to talk to my shrink about that one.

 

5) I've never climbed anything harder than 5.3 (that was on toprope and I came down because I was scared). Although, getting home last night was at least 5.6, maybe 5.7

 

6) I don't even climb or like climbers. I thought this whole time this was a porn chat-room, couldn't figure out why there weren't any good pictures posted. What a waste of time, you people all suck. Why would you waste your time on the internet argueing about climbing ethics when there is so much free deviant porn out there?

 

7) There is no rock or rock climbers in the Okanogan. Didn't you get it the first time?

 

8) There is no "canyon" being secretly guarded by the locals in the OK. Because they don't exist, as I pointed out before. Come on, keep up now.

 

9) I'm outa here, this thread sucks. Besides, I'm late for happy hour at the Stateline

 

I apologize for the previous misinformation I provided, hopefully this clarifies the matter. (Now maybe my PM box will quit filling up with hate mail from the locals that don't exist regarding my association with such a known "rock raper" as yourself)

 

Also, think I know how to solve this ethics debate. Remember the scene from Gangs of New York where the rival gangs grab all the farm implements and have at eachother. Maybe we could schedule something similar at Dishman. I'll be at the Vu watching between dances. Have fun.

 

Cheers,

 

Blowboarder

[RuMR]

OMFG! That's some funny stuff!!!!!!!!!

[Dane]

"I would like to come to some sort of compromise with the bolt thing."

 

Marty, I have your number I'll call again. Quick seach on google will get you mine.

 

I knew some of what was happening around Spokane years ago and choose to ignore it figuring everyone gets their due. And you were staying off my climbs and out of "my" areas. Long sense lost any thought of Vantage being one of "my" areas. New area developements are a freebe IMO. You live with what you sew.

 

What I see is that "you guys" aren't climbing hard enough if you have to chip. You have your own ideas I know. That's fair.

 

Dishman is shit from a number of recent efforts. None of them mine. Your guide book does support some pretty radical anarchy. Better the discussion here in public, than a breaker bar and cement patch in my hand.(the later being my first choice from the intial Dishman experience last week)

 

We look at the world differntly when it comes to climbing. The rub is where our different ideals clash in a common use area.

 

We do need a compromise, on that we agree.

 

From Marty's INLAND NW ROCK CLIMBS 2001:

 

"There's a noticeable lack of well-protected moderate routes in the Inland Northwest. Some of the early routes were poorly protected because there no cordless roto-hammers then. Other routes were top roped into submission, then sparsely protected to protect the holgram of a bold ascent. Either way, a poorly protected route sits idle. A few routes at Dishman have been reequiped and become instantly popular. A couple others were prompley chopped due to the remote intergenerational tryanny of climbing ethics. It's funny how the old 5.12s (the limit at the time) were well protected and the 5.9s weren't. We must remember that one man's 5.13 is another's 5.8 and protect routes accordingly. It's possible that this tyranny will end when certain old schoolers make that last hike to the easy chair, or relaize that Minnehaha isn't ElCap. Dying is more more nobly done in the mountains, not in Spokane."

 

You make several assumptions in that paragraph Marty. From my personal perspective all of them wrong.

[Marty]

Assumptions they are Dane. You are exactly right because I wasn't there the day that all the routes you guys did were done. No doubt I'm offbase on some of the routes. I totally belive you that you ground up lead Chicken Spread or The Force or Klingon, without prior inspection because I know that's your style and you were doing routes like that all the time. That was your game and you were good at it. But none of the routes were toproped prior to their FA? There were anchors there on a lot of stuff and I find it hard to belive it wasn't going on, and why not? You probably weren't but was anyone elese? But again my stament could be dead wrong on all accounts and I appolgize if that's true.

 

Dane, there is a noticeable lack of well-protected moderate routes around here. You have to be able to climb at least 5.11 to have any selection of sport routes or you are toproping which does your head no good at all. If you don't get comfortable leading/falling on bolts there's a greater chance that you will never lead/fall on gear. Minne, Dishman, Post Falls, used to be considered "practice" crags so why not make them such? Let people try bolts, then gear, and then maybe Chimney is not so stagnate in the future and you get to see your seed grow so to speak?

[Dane]

Let me clear this up a bit.

 

Here are the assumptions as I read them.

 

1. There's a noticeable lack of well-protected moderate routes in the Inland Northwest.

 

Almost everything can be top roped in the Spokane area.

If you have half a clue using pro most can be lead safely and have been dozens of times or they were bolted some time ago for the same reasons under discussion here.

 

Well protected is the definition under discussion. I figure anything with a bolt at my feet while clipping the next is over protected. I figure a bolt at my feet as well as my waste while clipping the next is a sick joke.

 

Gotta remember I built some of the first walls in the area so a gym isn't another world to me. Just never thought that gym climbers would have a stunted growth pattern when they ventured outdoors.

 

2. Some of the early routes were poorly protected because there no cordless roto-hammers then.

 

Not true...although a pain in the ass a lot of guys were willing to drill, Peterman for one. I wasn't often. Too lazy. Drills were around if you wanted them before you think. I think I even borrowed your's once from Keith

Of course some one chopped the same bolts next day.

 

3. Other routes were top roped into submission, then sparsely protected to protect the hologram of a bold ascent.

 

Guess it depends on your term for submission. Larry went way out of his way to add bolts to his lines, and mine for that matter, but they were well thought out, and yes even sporty, if you didn't climb at that standard. But you were also free to top rope the route into submission before attempting any lead. I did just that to some extent on Wings. It was one of the first bouldering type climbs doen in Spokane and very hard for its day if your were under 6'. But I don't believe Larry did the same on any of his climbs. Larry also didn't show at Dishman till 7 or 8 years after I had been clibing there virtually all by myself. More top ropes, less bolts was the unspoken motto...lead it when you thought you could with the protection in place. You want to hang, do it on a top rope.

 

It wasn't just unspoken, I also suggested it in person.

 

Guilty as charged on some of my lines. Larry never bothered to add bolts to them. I never dissed anyone for adding bolts to Wings, C/S, Rock Star or anything else as it was done in moderation looking for safe climbing. You can bet it took a few tr's to get Wings...hence the name and then it was lead...once that I know of before the additional bolts were added. But that shouldn't surprise anyone who has been on it. Even talked Larry out of adding another bolt on Rock 106. But that was because it was a better lead without.

 

But if there was anyone blowing up his ego it was me at Dishman not Peterman pre '90. I just climbed and figured out how to do things wihtout taking a hammer to the rock.

I would have continued to TR there before I would chip or add the number of bolts that are there now.

 

Hell everyone climbed harder that I did. I just wanted it more. Sound familiar

 

4. Either way, a poorly protected route sits idle.

 

Didn't see any leading going on the other day..typical top roping again. No surprize some of the climbs are hard. Not a lot of folks climbing past 5.10, now or then. I doubt that is going to change, ever. Add difficult leads to that equation and it is really going to slow down the traffic. Not sure that is aleways a bad thing.

 

Marty, same reason I thought you would be the first to condemn bolt lines, chopped holds and glue ons. Last I checked it was the good climbers that set the example by their actions for others to follow. I was surprised by the chipping.

 

5.A few routes at Dishman have been reequiped and become instantly popular.

 

Really? Not what I saw or was told.

 

6. A couple others were promptley chopped due to the remote intergenerational tryanny of climbing ethics.

 

The original bolts you added @ DH in the early '90s were chopped I suspect because the bolts were not deemed required to be safe or sane. I saw the first 2 you added to Larry's climbs early on. You were wrong adding them, then. Adding more now is out of line too, short of replacing old bolts.

 

7. Funny how the old 5.12s (the limit at the time) were well protected and the 5.9s weren't.

 

I tried to explain this once. Pat Mahoney did Slave Labor and Body Scarfer, IIRC. His bolt placements weren't Larry's or mine. Different ethics and mind set. But Pat also lead most of the .11s at Dishman on the original pro that was in place. No one was going to argue that he didn't have the right to place the amount of pro he thought was needed for his routes. Unlike Kurt Shannon, no one questioned him about actually climbing the lines. We saw him do them (and other like them), take falls on them (including a 40' deck with my bad Road Kill) and then red point them. Both routes went to the top of the rock. Hard to give a guy shit on that, no matter how he did it.

Not the kind of climbing I like but good routes IMO and yes very well protected. Don't miss the big picture is my take on it.

 

8. It's possible that this tyranny will end when certain old schoolers make that last hike to the easy chair, or realize that Minnehaha isn't ElCap.

 

Minni isn't El Cap. But neither is Dishman a gabage dump for climbers. I expect "us" to treat it better.

 

9. Dying is more more nobly done in the mountains, not in Spokane.

 

Dying is seldom noble and usually just messy. No reason to die climbing if you are up to the challenge. If you are worried about dying, hang a top rope, you'll live longer and not trash perfectly good climbs with chipped holds, a line of bolts or plastic bolted to the wall.

[Wacker]

I have enjoyed this thread greatly. I started reading it just for the entertainment value alone, but now I feel like I need to offer up what little a broken down soft body like me can.

 

I must first admit that Marty is my best friend, and offer up a little personal history; The first time I met Marty was at Dishman. I was top roping klingon into submission, while he and Russ where working out the crux moves of "The dull cycle". He was best man at my wedding. I have some knowledge of his character and his personality. I also have an opinion on the some of the topics that have been touched in this thread, as well as a few related observations.

 

1. Marty loves to climb rock. This is the central feature of his existence. Marty works to earn money so that he can buy hangers bolts and feed himself while he climbs. In the past 15 years climbing rock has been the focus of his life. I know of no other person who I have met that takes climbing or any other activity as seriously as Marty does. Climbing is an integral part of who Marty is. I know that he would never do anything that he even remotely thought was bad for the sport of climbing.

 

2. Marty does not climb for anyone else but Marty. Climbing is not a social event for Marty. Marty does not seek the approval of others or recognition of others for his climbing achievements. The popular belief that Marty wrote and published his guidebook to somehow feed his ego could not be further from the truth. He wrote and published his book in an effort to make money to fund his climbing and route building without resorting to stacking rocks. Other than being an interesting diversion, I doubt that the book could be considered a hugely successful venture.

 

3. On many occasions Marty and I have discussed the topic of route chipping. The practice of chipping any free climbable portion of an established route so as to make it climbable by a person of lesser skill than the person who first climbed it is deplorable. The problem is that the definition of chipping is quite loose. If a climb has a loose and obviously hanging flake, is it chipping to pull the flake off, possibly saving the next belayer's or even climbing parties life? What about cleaning, or trundling, is that not a form of chipping? Are pitons chipping, or bashies? In many popular sandstone areas the repeated placement of cams has formed "Cam pockets", is this a form of chipping.

 

4. As long as no law is broken in the placing of a bolt or the chipping of a hold, what right does anyone have to remove the bolt or take issue with it's placement. If the rock is on public property and it is legal to place the bolt, which is an established recreational use of public property in most places at this time, then it would not be right to infringe on the recreational privileges of someone else by chopping his or her bolts. The same could be said for chipping. Entire crags have been drilled and chipped out of blank walls and caves, in the eyes of the law this is exercising the right to use public property in a legal and recreational manner. I personally am far to lazy to drill or chip a route, but I fail to see how it could even approach the level of destruction as the wholesale quarrying and grinding up any and all exposed limestone within easy reach of a road. Which by the way is not only legal on public land after securing the proper permits and paying of fees, has left very little limestone around to bolt or chip. While this line of thinking would lead to the question of "Chipping down" established routes, which all agree is a shame, it's also a shame to see a strip mine, but we sure would miss the copper that makes our computers and electrical infrastructure possible. These points are just opposite ends of the land use issue, when we allow any access or use of public wild lands we open the discussion of what activities are to be allowed and to what limits will be placed on the users. For years I have heard the same holier than thou argument of "Trad" climbers that bolts scar the rock, and should be banned. The truth is that any use of wild lands scar the environment and forever alter it, but what is the use of having wild public land if there is no entry or use allowed? If you think bolting should be banned, or regulated, or that chipping should not be allowed, lobby a lawmaker, circulate a petition, mobilize the community for a positive cause you believe in. After public law or policy has been changed, for better or worse, then we can debate the merits of that instead of the merits of the thoughts and supposed actions of others.

 

5. Climbing "Ethics" are nothing more than the opinions and beliefs of a given individual, no more no less. They have value in as much as the person holding them has value, they do not bind even the person who holds them, and only by the exercise of them consistently can they influence others by example. Touting the superiority of your ethics over those of someone else is a waste of time, especially on a message board, where words are typed without having to actually defend them in real time. My ethics include the unpopular belief that software and music should not be copied and distributed without paying for it, I don't waste my time preaching to the "Bill Gates is rich enough" crowd. Lead by example, perhaps your ethics will catch on when others see the value of them. Teach your children to do what you think is right, if you don't have children then volunteer as a big brother or sister and teach those children. Do something positive with all this moral indignation.

 

6. As for actually retro bolting at Dishman, Marty had nothing to do with it. I don't know for sure who did it, I have been told that a Grady fellow did it, but I have no first hand knowledge, only hearsay. But if I were still climbing there I would welcome the addition, even if it was grid bolted. I would not personally retro bolt the routes, because I don't think they warrant the effort or expense, I prefer steeper limestone. The retro bolter has just as much claim to the use of the rock as any other citizen. If he or she wishes to utilize the rock, and feels that additional bolts are required, then who are any of us to question, or worse yet threaten that person. The argument that the bolter has altered the precious rock is just as flawed. Climbers alter the rock they climb, just as hikers by definition make trails that alter the forest, climbers put up routes that alter the rock. Even the most sacred of Spokane climbing cows, the dihedral at Mini, even before the bolting was cleaned, climbed and worked into a route that was visible to the naked eye from the ground.

 

7. In closing I can't help but think that this whole discussion has gotten blown way out of hand. I have heard talk in the climbing community of physical threats or perceived physical threats relating to this discussion, this is absurd. Many of the posts have sunk to personal attacks and petty, childish jabs. A discussion thread is meant to be just that a discussion, where ideas and thoughts are debated in an open and civilized manner. Reading the thread was much like watching an episode of South Park, it's undeniably entertaining, does pose a few interesting questions, but still a little to vulgar to let the kids watch. Although that does bring up another interesting question, which poster is most like the Cartman character?

Wacker

P.S. shouldn't be too terribly hard to discover who I am!

[RuMR]

"6. As for actually retro bolting at Dishman, Marty had nothing to do with it. I don't know for sure who did it, I have been told that a Grady fellow did it, but I have no first hand knowledge, only hearsay. But if I were still climbing there I would welcome the addition, even if it was grid bolted. I would not personally retro bolt the routes, because I don't think they warrant the effort or expense, I prefer steeper limestone. The retro bolter has just as much claim to the use of the rock as any other citizen. If he or she wishes to utilize the rock, and feels that additional bolts are required, then who are any of us to question, or worse yet threaten that person. The argument that the bolter has altered the precious rock is just as flawed. Climbers alter the rock they climb, just as hikers by definition make trails that alter the forest, climbers put up routes that alter the rock. Even the most sacred of Spokane climbing cows, the dihedral at Mini, even before the bolting was cleaned, climbed and worked into a route that was visible to the naked eye from the ground. "

 

ummm...that is carrying the retrobolting argument too far...in general a bolt or two added here and there to eliminate ground fall potential in an urban area on an existing route, i have no problem with...the development of a sport crag i also have little problem with...

 

i do have a problem with your logic though...it seems to me that you could easily apply these rules to someplace like, oh i don't know, something like OuterLimits or something along those lines...or bolt Supercrack...there has to be a limit to what you are proposing...i don't know how to define it, but i have a feeling most people have some common ground and will know the line when they see it...

[southernmtguide]

Playing detective here, "Wacker" is; BR. Esquire.

[drater]

[quote}

Wacker

P.S. shouldn't be too terribly hard to discover who I am!

 

YOU MUST RESPECT MY ATHORITIE!!

 

[drater]

Although that does bring up another interesting question, which poster is most like the Cartman character?

Wacker

P.S. shouldn't be too terribly hard to discover who I am!

 

YOU MUST RESPECT MY AUTHORITIE!!!

[Wacker]

The argument was for the arguments sake, I don't think cracks should be bolted, but that an informed consensus should be reached in a civil manner as to what should be done with public resources. And no this is not B.R., I am far more handsome.

[Roadstead1]

Dane, What The Hell Is going on? I hear about this crap on the net. Then I see all this crap. You are talking Dishman Rocks. My God Dane Quit living in the Past, You Must have far better things to do, like getting back in climb shape and help me show these young studs that we can still pull very Hard. Fast is Still Safe and being old dose not mean over the hill

[Dane]

Hey Dave good to see you show up here Have you seen what has happened @ Dishman? I couldn't actually believe it, till after I had seen it.