Wake up America

[cracked]

[iain]

when will this page top shit stop. it's so fricking tired.

[cracked]

[Stonehead]

It was a cool fall day in November 1979 in a country going through a religious and political upheaval when a group of Iranian students attacked and seized the American Embassy in Tehran. This seizure was an outright attack on American soil; it was an attack that held the world's most powerful country hostage and paralyzed a Presidency. The attack on this sovereign U. S. embassy set the stage for events to follow for the next 23 years.

 

A thinking person has to ask “why” when reading the events listed in the email. Why did the events occur? These events did not occur in a vacuum, in and of themselves. There is a context for each of the events. You should not dismiss the larger picture, the forest while focusing on the trees, the results of each specific event.

 

For instance, in 1953, the CIA assisted in the establishment of the Shah of Iran as ruler of that country through a bloody coup d'état. The seizure of power overthrew Dr. Mohammad Mossadegh, the Prime Minister of Iran who was elected by the parliament, and who was the Iranian cultural hero who enforced the Oil Nationalization Bill to terminate British ownership and influence on the Iran's oil industry in 1951.

 

Thereafter, the Iranian people deeply suffered under the Shah's dictatorship. The Shah maintained power through use of ruthless, brutal means primarily through his secret police. His rule was characterized by corruption, phony elections, heavy censorship, torture and execution of thousands of dissenters until the 1979 Revolution.

 

The following is an excerpt from website, Super70s.com:

 

Under Shah Mohammed Reza Pahlavi, Iran had been a long-time ally of the United States. The Shah's secret police, the Savak, were notorious abusers of human rights, however. President Carter writes in his biography, Keeping the Faith, that he asked the Shah whether he could curb the human rights abuses in Iran. The Shah answered, "No, there is nothing I can do. I must enforce the Iranian laws, which are designed to combat communism."

 

The Shah declared martial law in September 1977. A bloody confrontation between police and Muslims killed several hundred people. Muslims called for the Shah's abdication. The Shah tried to pacify them by granting amnesty to several opposition leaders, including Muslim leader Ayatollah Khomeini, who had been living in exile in France.

 

The Shah also appointed a prime minister, who once in power called for the Shah to leave and disband his secret police. On January 19, 1979 millions of marchers rallied to back Khomeini, who announced from France that he was forming a new government. Khomeini flew into Teheran, the capital of Iran, on February 1, 1979. Meanwhile, the United States was evacuating Americans from Iran. The Shah fled to Morocco.

 

On November 4, 1979, 3,000 militants overran the U.S. Embassy in Teheran and captured 54 embassy staff members. Religious extremist and Iranian leader Ayatollah Khomeini praised their actions. The militants demanded that: the Shah, who ruled Iran for decades and was now seeking medical treatment in the West, be turned over to them for trial; the United States apologize for crimes against the Iranian people; and the Shah's assets be paid to them.

 

In April 1980, a U.S. rescue mission failed. The hostages were released in 1981, on President Ronald Reagan's inauguration day, 444 days after they were taken.

 

 

 

We should focus on this last particular event and the underhanded political maneuvering the Reagan election team undertook to delay the hostage release until after the presidential election. The term “October Surprise” comes from this political deal brokered by Howard Baker and others of the Reagan team.

 

Might we also not forget that the Muhajadeen including Osama bin Laden were given arms and training to fight in Afghanistan against the communists.

[gotterdamerung]

Hey Stonehead,

 

I think it's good to be aware of history, but I wonder at your use of words such as 'underhanded' when referring to a deal that freed Americans who had been held captive for over a year in conditions far worse than Abu Ghraib. I also wonder at your logic of questioning that we trained UBL at a time when destroying communism was a higher priority. Very few members of the Muslim community raised any flags whatsoever about arming and training Muslim expatriates to fight in Afghanistan. They welcomed the chance to fight.

 

I think it says alot that you would seemingly side with the interests of a foreign entities over the freedoms of your own fellow countrymen.

 

This kind of attitude gets right to the base of the problems of the liberal cause. You espouse the culture of 'victimhood' while waving the flag of cultural intervention. You are allowed these freedoms vis a vis the luxury of domestic peace and prosperity. It is a theme I am often coming up against in liberal middle class American. The elite of the left are very rarely realitistic about foreign policy and have done much to sell this country out. Many liberals are empowered to speak, but unable to act. Logic flawed by years of a drop out liberal education turns round and round in circles upon itself. Those that cannot do teach and the best and brightest minds DO NOT end up in the university system. Rather it is the mindless sheep that sally forth to preach the new liberalism. Those that get caught up in it have not become empowered thinkers, merely the ruptured synapse of a neuron that misfired in the 60's.

 

Your altruism is confined to small venues where a sympathetic ear may fall prey to a wishful version of the truth. It is your isolationism that feeds your pan-humanistic altruism. But what happens when the Barbarians come knocking at your gate like they did on the gates of Constantinople? Where will your high humanistic ideals go then? Will you stand up and fight or loudly proclaim that it was Reagan and Bush who decreed your demise? Will you still look inwardly for answers or will you finally realize that there is a threat out there? A threat that will not stop with the Twin Towers, or the Khobar Towers, or in Iraq, or Saudi Arabia.

 

Goodwill often leads to disasterous results while Iron Will on our part will lead to the elimination of the threat. "Three thousand years have not changed the human condition, we are all still lovers and victims of the will to violence..." -Bernard Knox

[Stonehead]

Hey Stonehead,

 

I think it's good to be aware of history, but I wonder at your use of words such as 'underhanded' when referring to a deal that freed Americans who had been held captive for over a year in conditions far worse than Abu Ghraib. I also wonder at your logic of questioning that we trained UBL at a time when destroying communism was a higher priority. Very few members of the Muslim community raised any flags whatsoever about arming and training Muslim expatriates to fight in Afghanistan. They welcomed the chance to fight.

 

I think it says alot that you would seemingly side with the interests of a foreign entities over the freedoms of your own fellow countrymen.

 

This kind of attitude gets right to the base of the problems of the liberal cause. You espouse the culture of 'victimhood' while waving the flag of cultural intervention. You are allowed these freedoms vis a vis the luxury of domestic peace and prosperity. It is a theme I am often coming up against in liberal middle class American. The elite of the left are very rarely realitistic about foreign policy and have done much to sell this country out. Many liberals are empowered to speak, but unable to act. Logic flawed by years of a drop out liberal education turns round and round in circles upon itself. Those that cannot do teach and the best and brightest minds DO NOT end up in the university system. Rather it is the mindless sheep that sally forth to preach the new liberalism. Those that get caught up in it have not become empowered thinkers, merely the ruptured synapse of a neuron that misfired in the 60's.

 

Your altruism is confined to small venues where a sympathetic ear may fall prey to a wishful version of the truth. It is your isolationism that feeds your pan-humanistic altruism. But what happens when the Barbarians come knocking at your gate like they did on the gates of Constantinople? Where will your high humanistic ideals go then? Will you stand up and fight or loudly proclaim that it was Reagan and Bush who decreed your demise? Will you still look inwardly for answers or will you finally realize that there is a threat out there? A threat that will not stop with the Twin Towers, or the Khobar Towers, or in Iraq, or Saudi Arabia.

 

Goodwill often leads to disasterous results while Iron Will on our part will lead to the elimination of the threat. "Three thousand years have not changed the human condition, we are all still lovers and victims of the will to violence..." -Bernard Knox

 

I question whether our enemies are strictly foreign. Perhaps there are elements within our own ranks in leadership position who hold higher allegiance to other countries above our own. You see, there are some within our government and with business interests who profit from the Iraqi conflict. The common people are used for cannon fodder and we are led along by lofty ideals and speeches.

 

Peace is an illusion but war should be taken with awareness and thought. We are reaping some of what we, ourselves, have sown.

 

I'd write more but work calls, then rock climbing.

BTW, that 'October Surprise' bit is partisan. 'Underhanded' only refers to negotiation to delay the release of hostages so that the credit went to the Reaganites as opposed to the Carter efforts. ...Perhaps too strong a word in lieu of strong conclusive evidence (hearings, indictments, etc.)...

[Beck]

Umm, Godderdamning, Iraq didn't have anything to do with the terrorist attacks. What are sacrificing American lifes for? Wake up, indeed.

 

Who do we attack? Everyone that isn't American? Anyone with a "towel" on their head? Do we attack China, North Korea, Saudi Arabia?

 

Your blind patriotism is pretty dim. This is a for profit war.

You were one of the profiteers. Dick Cheney would be proud of you.

[gotterdamerung]

Ummmm Beck, I've explained in great detail previously my belief that the war was strategic. I am not patriotic I am pragmatic. Also, I am tired of you taking me on with a personal bent. I'll see you at pubclub this coming Tuesday. I am coming just for you so be there. Or you can just name a place instead.

[glacier]

 

 

Your blind patriotism is pretty dim. This is a for profit war.

 

regarding blind patriotism and lock-step party politics (both left and right), since y'all like historical references:

 

"Party membership and loyalty came to be regarded as the highest virtues, overshadowing all others and justifying the abandonment of all the restraints of traditional morality. Fanatisicm and the treacherous intention to plot the destruction of an enemy behind his back were regarded as equally admirable: to recoil from either of these was to disrupt the unity of the party out of fear of the enemy. Oaths lost their meaning and became tools of duplicity." - The Peloponnesian War, by Donald Kagan.

[willstrickland]

You want a quote....I give you a quote:

 

"Propaganda must always be essentially simple and repetitious. In the long run, only he will achieve basic results in influencing public opinion who is able to reduce problems to the simplest terms and who has the courage to keep forever repeating them in this simplified form despite the objections of the intellectuals."

- Joseph Goebbels’ diary, 1/29/42

[Jim]

Unfortunate but true. While the Bushies are good at this the lack of critical analysis by most Americans is appalling.

[wally]

what would be Bush's personal vendata for Iraq? Because his dad was all upset that he didn't finish the job(Son, go kick Sadaam's butt for me. OK dad.) thats pretty far-fetched. Or if for the oil what is Bush doing with it all? I dont see super cheap gas prices for the USA.

[jjd]

I am coming just for you so be there.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Dru]

i don't see how increased corporate control of oil is supposed to translate into cheaper gas for consumers. it's all about increased profit for shareholders not some sort of socialistic subsidization of the american motorist!

[jjd]

 

[gotterdamerung]

Absolutely zero chance of violence, name calling, or loud voices. Curious to meet this person who seems to know me so well even though I've never even seen him in person.

[JayB]

Anyone remember what happened after the Mullah's took over in Iran? They made the Shah look like strawberry shortcake. Compare bodycounts - it's not even close.

 

In one of Bernard Lewis' new books on the Middle East he claims that interviews with the hostage takers recorded long after the fact reveal that their purpose was to thwart what they feared would be a sort of rapproachment with the United States, concurrent with the rise of moderates within the revolution who would undermine their goal of establishing a retrograde theocracy. In their minds decisively severing any relationship with/antagonizing the US would better serve their ends, and keeping hostages was the best means available to do so. He also mentions that they were astonished and emboldened by America's tepid response to the seizure of the embassy, and handed over the hostages when Reagan took office because they were afraid that he would respond "like a cowboy."

 

Not sure who's got the best sources but this is at least as plausible, if not more so, than the "underhanded" claim. Why in the hell would the Iranians want to hand a triumph to a President who made no secret of the fact that he would be a determined foe of theirs from the moment he took office?

[wally]

wouldn't Bush want to get a second term? If he is in it for power and money thats what he would want. The war has brought alot of critisim to his administration not exactly the best steps if you want to remain in power. So does Bush get a cut of the oil profits from the share holders or how does that work? I also don't remember hearing that were taking the Iraqi oil.

[wally]

I heart halaburton

[gotterdamerung]

Paul Johnson was beheaded today. Part of a larger escalation of the war by Al Qaeda cells. There's a good organization you can join to combat this type of murder of Americans. It's called 1stSFOD-D. Some type A's on this board with excellent fitness, mental and emotional aptitude, superior cross country navigational skills, and prior or current affiliation with the military may qualify. If you are a navy man then DevGroup would apply to you, however I have heard of crossovers from other branches into both.

-----------------------------------------------------------

The U.S. Army's 1st Special Forces Operational Detachment-Delta (1stSFOD-D) plans and conducts a broad range of special operations across the operational continuum. Delta is organized for the conduct of missions requiring rapid response with surgical applications of a wide variety of unique skills,while maintaining the lowest possible profile of U.S. involvement.

 

Assignment to 1st SFOD-D involves an extensive prescreening process,successful completion of a 3 to 4 week mentally and physically demanding Assessment and Selection Course, and a 6 month operator Training Course. Upon successful completion of these courses operators are assigned to an operational position within the unit.

[JoshK]

This new behading fad over there is fucking sick. These people are subhuman. What makes it even sicker is the poor victims are dead the miute they are captured. The terrorists have to know by now that their demands will never be met.

 

What is particularly sick is that the Saudis ran all around putting on a good show looking for this guy, but the reality is it's their fault that such a large number of these sick fucks operate in that country.

 

We need to get our move on with getting rid of our oil dependence ASAP. We don't need "allies" like Saudi Arabia.

[gotterdamerung]

The bad thing is that even if we were able to use different energy sources that we would leave millions of Arab draft age males unemployed and really pissed off with nothing else to do. In those regards we've seen what happens in Africa when this situation is allowed to fester. You'll have 12 years olds toting AK's before too long. Seems like we better just deal with them the way they understand and that is to systematically exterminate every roach out there claiming to oppose the US while building stronger relations with countries that actually have something offer. Bringing economics closer to this side of the pond is making more sense all the time. At least we have an ocean barrier and a population that wouldn't tolerate foreign aggression on our own soil (for the most part anyway).

[jjd]

gotterdamerung:

 

To your knowledge, how accurate is this book?

 

I've read this book about 4 times - I think it's great (am I being bamboozled?)

[gotterdamerung]

I've heard that the author Eric Haney was ostricized by the community for the book and that some things were still regarded as sensitive. All the operators I've ever met are amazingly reticent about ANYTHING they have done to include the selection and training process. He's one of those guys that was either liked or loved depending on who knows him. I haven't heard anyone discounting his story of the operations involved and I personally liked the book myself. A former SEAL operator named Richard Marcinko was roundly criticized when he began writing SEAL operations down on paper, and he still hasn't lived it down to this day. But he has his incredibly loyal crew who can't say a bad thing about him either. My ex wife worked with his daughter and she said she couldn't stand the guy.

 

All those years of the POW MIA issue and someone finally came out and just said what we knew all along. P.O.W.'s were left behind because we refused reparations to North Vietnam. Makes me sick.

[jjd]

I got sick to my stomach when I read the POW/MIA information in the Haney book, especially after reading this: