Northwest Forest Pass LOOPHOLE!!!!

[allison]

Mt friend Doug Meyer is an ordained minister in the Universal Life Matrix Chrch. I had him ordained (via Internet, but it is all legal) so that he could preside over the proceedings of my first wedding, which took place at Smith. So, ULM is already active in this sort of thing in Central Orygun. ULM's slogan is "do that which you think is right."

[layton]

What court would you go to? It's federal land. They can give you a ticket, but there's no court to make you pay. Don't even bother. Collect em' and trade em with your friends.

 

Or, destroy the sign saying you need one and claim you didn't see a sign... Start a nice forest fire with one.

[Tod]

I have had at least one, if not two "tickets" issued for not having a Forest Pass. I have never paid for a pass and nor paid for any tickets that I have recieved. By paying you of course accept the demonstration and voice your approval. Because this is a Federal Demonstration Program there is very little legal recourse that the Forest Service has through the courts.

 

In my last ticket recieved in September of 2001 I sent my ticket in with the following letter. I have not recieved any further notices or fines because of it:

 

September, 2001

 

Senator Patty Murray

173 Russell Senate Office Building

Washington, D.C. 20510

United States of America

 

Dear Senator Patty Murray,

 

I am sending you my Notice of Noncompliance for not participating in the Fee Demonstration issued and run by the National Forest Service. Not only do I question the authority that the National Forest Service has requiring a fee for recreating on public lands, but I also question the fine that has been issued, particularly when this program is a demonstration program.

 

As a demonstration program, the fees and fines are designed to show acceptance; in reality, the only acceptance of the program that the Forest Service is able to obtain is through extortion by fining citizens who choose to voice their opposition. Other than noncompliance, there is no other means for citizens to show their opposition to the program. One may write to their congresswoman or congressman to state their opposition, but with the way the fees and fines are issued, the only way to use Public Lands during the “Demonstration” period you must purchase a pass and thus state your “acceptance”. This is not only immoral, it is extortion and in no way does it legally allow one to visit public land and voice opposition to a Federal Program during its Demonstration Period

 

I urge you to use this Notice of Noncompliance as proof that the National Forest Service is lying to and extorting the citizens of the United Sates and forcing them to participate and show acceptance in a program that is immoral and fiscally irresponsible.

 

Thank you for your time and consideration,

 

Tod

[glen]

Nice letter. Perhaps there should be a form letter that people can send in with their ticket. Organized non-compliance. I nominate Tod's letter.

[bcollins]

Great letter, thanks for pulling it all together. I've printed it out and will have it at the ready if I'm ever "cited". I have gotten 2 "free" passes at the Snow Lake parking lot. One was for a day and another was a season pass!!! Remember....BOYCOTT THE FEES!!!!

 

Barry

[leithal]

Okay, so I know I'm going to elicit a lot of crap for this one, but here goes anyway.... the forest service is a business like any other, which needs money to survive and operate. In years past, all that money has come from logging, mining, and grazing. Now they are realizing that there might(is) money to be made in recreation. I personally would rather make a $30 donation to the cause if it will reduce logging and mining in the forests that I recreate in. I think as climbers we have a hell of a lot less impact on the environment than those other uses.

 

Now, some disclaimers... more power to you if you don't want to buy a pass, and get away with it. I wasn't stoked on it either, and am not thrilled to have to pay to park at a trailhead, and then pay an additional fee when I enter a national park. I was not happy when the demonstration came along either, but unfortunately I think it is past the "demonstration" phase and is now fully implemented until it gets voted out. I guess I just feel that our recreational means are the lesser of all evils that forest service land supports.

[cj001f]

quote:

---

Originally posted by leithal:

I was not happy when the demonstration came along either, but unfortunately I think it is past the "demonstration" phase and is now fully implemented until it gets voted out.

---

Wrongo. Uh Unh.

 

Right now is the final big "push" for acceptance of the feedemo program - it hasn't been placed into permanent law yet, and it won't be, if we complain enough.

 

As for what sucks about fee-demo - you don't have to diagree with the fee to think the implementation of it sucks. By buying the pass you vote yes for fee-demo - but you can't use the land wihtout buying the pass(otherwise you get ticketed). So in order to legally use the land, you have to vote yes for fee-demo. One of the more crooked schemes to measure public acceptance if you ask me.

 

As for the Forest Service as a business - I won't go into that here. But you might want to remember that the Forest Service spent more money administering, and building roads for the logging companies than it took in in logging fees.

 

Carl

 

[ 07-01-2002, 08:20 PM: Message edited by: cj001f ]

[bellemontagne]

I believe there are three or four major loopholes, and I think they have been successfully challenged.

 

1) Using forest land for religious worship/religious purposes

2) Using forest land for free speech and/or protest purposes. I believe this does require more blatant evidence of protest activity. Plaster your car with anti-fee demo propaganda, and have anti-fee demo literature in case confronted by USFS enforcement.

3) Using forest land for educational puposes.

 

Scott Silver's Wild Wilderness site has some great anti-fee demo information. Check out http://www.wildwilderness.org

[Rodchester]

"I personally would rather make a $30 donation to the cause if it will reduce logging and mining in the forests that I recreate in."

 

$30.00 donation? Wow. Do you actually think it will reduce logging and mining?

 

This is not meant to be a personal attack...but that was one of the most nieve statements I've seen on the topic.

 

[ 07-02-2002, 07:54 AM: Message edited by: Rodchester ]

[payaso]

If you provide the government with a source of money, they will spend it.

[glen]

Seems like a good way to reduce logging and mining is to conusme fewer products. If it isn't grown, it comes from a mine.

 

Is there any type of agency recording 'Nays' on the fee demo, or is the count based on only a tallying of 'Yays'?

[Dru]

quote:

---

Originally posted by glen:

Seems like a good way to reduce logging and mining is to conusme fewer products. If it isn't grown, it comes from a mine.

 

---

Ummm ya.... so do they mine horsecock or grow it? And what about GU? Mined or grown?

 

"See kids, here we are on the Beckey Ranch... over there is the horsecock tree and in that pasture the GU-birds graze and peck..."

[gschryer2]

quote:

---

Originally posted by bellemontagne:

I believe there are three or four major loopholes, and I think they have been successfully challenged.

 

2) Using forest land for free speech and/or protest purposes. I believe this does require more blatant evidence of protest activity. Plaster your car with anti-fee demo propaganda, and have anti-fee demo literature in case confronted by USFS enforcement.

---

Somehow I missed this one in the past... why don't we all pack along a handfull of pamphlets whereever you go and "hand them out to fellow trail/crag users" - IE exchange them... If enough people do this, any given day can appear to constitute a demonstration of protest. If you are caught with ropes and rack in hand you can claim that you intend to deliver your propaganda to climbers on high.... again, with a good compliance of the demonstration between climbers and other trail users, you could actually demonstrate an exchange of propaganda material at each belay.

 

My one concern would be non-compliance with the demonstration leading to paper liter everywhere, so...

 

You can start a whole movement of token exchanges... no paper, but if everyone carries just one token representing your anti-fee demo position and exchange it with others... all is well, you only carry one token at a time. Maybe in the beginning you carry a stack to hand out and build critical mass... but in the end you not only safely demonstrate your protest, but you also build community awareness and widespread support.

 

Ok, a bit of a ramble, I'm done now...

 

G

 

[ 07-02-2002, 10:26 AM: Message edited by: gschryer2 ]

[cj001f]

quote:

---

Originally posted by glen:

Is there any type of agency recording 'Nays' on the fee demo, or is the count based on only a tallying of 'Yays'?

---

To the best of my knowledge their is no agency which publicly records Nya votes. Anyways - if you want to learn from the beauracrats ass(his mouth):

http://www.fs.fed.us/recreation/programs/feedemo/index.shtml

 

Carl

[MysticNacho]

Larry the Tool would have a hayday with y'all! Whats with all this "I'm having a religous holiday on Outer Space" talk? Larry the Tool wouldn't care, he'd slap you with a ticket and slash the tires on your propaganda plastered car. That one dude had the right idea, spend the money you would have used to pay your ticket and buy the anti-fee demo bumper stickers.