Flagging

[rbw1966]

Maybe he is a she?

[jefffski]

Wow you guys are hardcore!! Do you really pack it out??? I can see burning the urinated paper but the ass wipe?? That is foul, I mean it smells bad enough when its not on fire, I can only imagine. Am I the only one on here that just buries it and doesn't feel bad? How are the other climbers supposed to know what territory is yours if you remove all your scents???

 

yes i burn it. quite easy and i haven't noticed any more bad smell. works well in winter when you can't really bury it.

[scrambled_legs]

how do you burn tp after ou have urinated on it anyway? what kind of STD do you have scrambled leggo, that you have to wipe after you pee?

 

Just trying to stop the drip, or do you not have that problem. You can tip it or tap it or smack it against the wall but when you put it back in your pants, the last drop is sure to fall.

[David_Parker]

Flagging often messes me up more than helps. My own instincs are pretty good and often I find I'm following a sucker trail. The problem I see with flagging is that some people do it so they can find their own way out, but it's not always the best way. Ideally if you are flagging for others, You should go up and then flag on the way down because you will know better where the trail should go by learning from your mistakes on the way up. I'd argue that flagging is good for the wilderness areas in that it keeps the impact to a set area and keeps people from making a new path every time they go in.

 

On the east coast, they mark their trails, even in remote areas. Much is paint on trees. Used to be blazes. I was on the AT trail in the Maine wilderness this winter and was woondering why there were sometimes two paint stripes instead of one. Keep in mind there is no path to follow in winter, so much of flagging is for winter travel when going through the forest is impossible to know where the trail is. Anyway, i found out two marks means an abrupt turn in the trail coming up. One means go straight more or less. I don't really mind the paint stripes. They are usually on the hardwood trees and not so much an eyesore. Surveyors tape SUCKS. It deteriorates (gets brittle)in less than a year and falls off. Then it's on the ground but never disappears. Above timberline like on Mt Washington or Katadin, white stripes on the rocks have saved many lives. When the fog and cold wind rolls in in the middle of summer, there is no way you'd know where to go.

[Skeezix]

Wow! I'm new to this board ...and I just read this whole thread. You people are incredible. You're all over the map on these issues. Guess I'll weigh in with my vote. Leave only footprints. Flagging tape is not footprints.

 

As for TP, practice the ancient zen art of wad fluffing. Wipe, invert your wad, and allow gravity to deconstruct your wad into a state of fluffiness. Carefully pile your fluffed wad, with the soiled part on top (it's tricky) on some bare ground or rock. Torch it.

 

Remind me to share a story about dumping toilet vaults in Boston Basin some time ...especially the part about why my partner shaved off his mustache. Yuk!

[John_Roper]

Fellow climbers and explorers,

 

Flagging is an important issue related to preserving the quality of our dwindling wilderness. Plastic flagging is litter, plain and simple. Even worse, it has led to permanent trails up pristine ridges and slopes, where there were none before.

 

I was lucky enough to have grown up in Newhalem when that town was the end of the road, a generation before there was a North Cascades National Park, before there were flags, and now ground-in paths to once untrammeled places. It used to be an adventure just to get above timberline. Route finding in the woods was an art and a challenge, up and down. When my buddies and I first headed into Eldorado, Pyramid-Colonial , the Chilliwacks/Depot Creek, the Southern Pickets (Terror Basin and The Barrier), Blum, Axes (access) Creek turnoff, Primus-Tricouni, Stout Lake, Azure Lake, etc., there were no flags. There were no trails. We can't get that back, but we don't have to make it any worse than it is, or destroy other approaches.

 

If you come upon a flag that was helpful to you, fine. But grab it, and practice your wilderness route-finding skills on the way down. Leave some unmarked hillsides for my kid and your kids to explore.

 

Tear this trash off the trees. Fill your pockets with these eyesores. Make the wilderness wild again. It does the soul good! It does the wilderness good.

 

Thanks for listening,

 

John Roper

[estivate]

"leave no trace" says it all. Don't flag. Don't make trails. Don't mark routes. No exceptions. They destroy wilderness values and encourage concentrated use. If you can't find your way around without marked routes, there's a new skill you need to master. The absence of a flagged route can make it harder to find your way there and back. It can cost you time. You might not get to your objective. You might get back late. So? That's what wilderness climbing is about. If you don't like it, pick a more accessible objective. There are plenty out there. I remove flagging wherever and whenever I find it on public lands.

[Cpt.Caveman]

I think flagging is acceptable in some situations like:

 

When if you don't flag a "standard route" then every yahoo on the planet will forge their own 50 maze of trails going to the same place. That's a LOT more of a mess than some plastic flagging that fades after a few years of harsh weather and drops to the ground.

[klenke]

I had never really considered the flagging issue but John's got a point. I've often made use of them when they appear before me to lay out the route. But that's because it's easy to be lazy when the "data" is right there before you.

 

Indeed, there is way too much flagging in the woods. If it isn't climber flagging, it's survey flagging. Seems like in recent times (last few years) I've seen more and more flagging hanging aside logging roads. What's it doing there? What's it demarking? A ditch that needs dredging out? I don't know but they certainly draw my eye away from the natural green to the unnatural pink or red or yellow or blue or pink-yellow-blue striping, etc.

 

However, the hard part is cleaning flagging up. While I agree it is an eyesore and makes lazy climbers out of us, it's always hard to justify the time expenditure to stop and stop and stop and stop to remove it. I'd never get on with the main objective I was there for in the first place: to climb a peak.

[klenke]

I should mention that the only climbs I ever went on where someone in the party flagged a route was when I was with the Mounties. I'm not saying they do it all the time but their mentality is to be safety conscious. They'd be more apt to flag a hump through the woods than others.

[gotterdamerung]

I think flagging is acceptable in some situations like:

 

When if you don't flag a "standard route" then every yahoo on the planet will forge their own 50 maze of trails going to the same place. That's a LOT more of a mess than some plastic flagging that fades after a few years of harsh weather and drops to the ground.

 

I think there are a lot more users around these days then when John Roper was growing up. It's an unfortunate fact. I say just build a good trail and let people trample it down. I am not sure why certain areas have to have such a lame mystique about them. With enough effort you can get anywhere in the Cascades just like you can get anywhere in any mountain range. Build a damned trail. Then let mountain bikes on it too.

[Cpt.Caveman]

I'm definitely not against trails and totally agree about lame "hyped up" mystique that people apply to areas around here.

[catbirdseat]

What exactly is "hyped up mytique"? You must be referring to the concepts of solitude and wilderness. I prefer NOT to see trails. Having said that, there are certain popular destinations where a single trail decreases the total impact, but in other, less used areas, more dispersed travel makes more sense.

[klenke]

Yeah, I was trying to understand Cavey's "'hyped up' mystique." Still not quite sure what he means. Perhaps he can elaborate.

[Cpt.Caveman]

Get real. Out of all the times you go out in the woods to climb these days how many are complete 100% off trail schwacks in the summer? And give all the examples of those too.

 

I'll be back to argue later..

[klenke]

This summer I've done about 30 peaks and maybe more where I never used a trail the moment I left the road. But I'm a peakbagger, not the "weekend must make it easy on myself lame lazy warrior" like so many others, so I don't count.

[Cpt.Caveman]

So what..

[klenke]

So you asked. That's what. Although, I know you were responding to CBS.

 

How many "peaks" have I done in total this summer? Maybe sixty, so 50% have been 'no trail' excursions. I could get my log and count specific numbers but 'so what.'

[catbirdseat]

Get real. Out of all the times you go out in the woods to climb these days how many are complete 100% off trail schwacks in the summer? And give all the examples of those too.

 

I'll be back to argue later..

The Tooth has many different boot tracks leading to it. It is an example of a climb that would better off with a trail, or at least a flagged route.

 

Mt. Stickney scramble route is flagged. The route starts out through trees and appears as a trail, but then crosses meadows with no trail. Without the flagging people will go many different ways and the meadow will remain pristine, but with the flagging that is there now, everyone will follow it and wear in a rut. Damn, I am ashamed that I didn't take the time to pull it down.

[marylou]

Toilet paper burns just fine even if it has pee on it.

 

Personally, I am not a huge fan of flagging, or even cairns, except perhaps to mark key turns and crossings. I spend a lot of time off-trail, and I guess it seems a bit more like an adventure if my route's not flagged or cairned.

 

That said, I've been thankful for a marking or two to keep me from getting cliffed or way off-route. Also, there seems to be two schools on off-trail travel: one is to try to minimize impact by following in the footsteps of others who have been there before, which causes a boot path to form, or to try and disperse the footsteps and minimize wear in any one area. Personally, I think the boot path is a slightly better option.

[Lambone]

Flagging? Works great!

 

[klenke]

I think my interest in this thread is flagging.

[gotterdamerung]

Personally I think there are some people beating their own drums on this thread. I say build more trails and gondolas (like one to the top of Snoqualmie mountain so I can yo-yo ski the slot). The concept of isolation in wilderness is funny. Walk the PCT for a couple of hundred miles. I guarantee you won't see anybody for days and days and that's a MAJOR TRAIL SYSTEM getting you to where you want to go.

[sexual_chocolate]

hh

[Geek_the_Greek]

It's a fine line between getting where you are trying to get, and developing a new trail or route through the woods. If you're just trying to get somewhere yourself and find your way out easily, then yeah, clean up your trash on the way out.

 

But if it's anything close to a popular area, especially near treeline, then having one established route (trail, path, whatev) will cut down on environmental impact immensely. And I'm not talking about the aesthetics-only impacts of the trail(s), but rather in terms of effects on vegetation, lichen, soils, etc., which are usually VERY sensitive high up. Deserts are also really sensitive - one footprint off trail somewhere like J-Tree can kill the soil for hundreds of years. I agree with Cavey on this - forget the so-called "mystique" of trying to pretend that you're the first one ever to visit the valley. You're following a guidebook description, for crying out loud. All the better if you don't have to choke down facefulls of devil's club by following some flagging tape, and can save some wildflowers along the way for the next party to see.

 

And obviously along logging areas and roads there's all sorts of flagging that has nothing to do with climbers. It definitely looks like shit, and all the better if someone out there is into picking it up.