Cantwell on Fee Demo

[erik]

i wrote a letter to cantwell, dicks(my rep) and murray.

 

cantwells letter to me was the exact same one lowell got, dicks never repsonded and niether did murray..

 

though i did get a follow up letter from catwell in regard to my issues with an agreesive ranger.

 

though that was like a month ago and i havent checked my mail since.

[glen]

I have recieved nothing else from Cantwell. Not too surprising.

 

For those who are interested, there is a day of action on une 15th to protest Fee Demo. Someone has been getting the word out, as there was a flyer on my windshield at the end of the day at the Snow Lake TH.

 

Also, New Hampshire has passed state level legislation against Fee Demo claiming double taxation. Gee... I guess they actually live by their state motto, "Live Free or Die."

[Son_of_Caveman]

hehehe

 

you're a funny fucker, Caveman

 

[avypoodle]

No Tooth TR Glen? I heard you were up there helping some Gapers get down the South Face.

[glen]

You might be a Gaper if...

... you post a trip TR for the Tooth.

 

I think most people could figure it out on the following formula:

1. Ascent through kicked steps up to P. Pass.

2. Lots of Mountaineers.

3. Passed Mountaineers at belays.

4. Nice view from top.

5. Waded through Mountaineers on the way down.

6. Hiked out.

 

Those were some pretty fun glissades on the way out though, eh Doug?

[erik]

quote:

---

Originally posted by glen:

You might be a Gaper if...

... you post a trip TR for the Tooth.

 

I think most people could figure it out on the following formula:

1. Ascent through kicked steps up to P. Pass.

2. Lots of Mountaineers.

3. Passed Mountaineers at belays.

4. Nice view from top.

5. Waded through Mountaineers on the way down.

6. Hiked out.

 

Those were some pretty fun glissades on the way out though, eh Doug?

---

I'VE NEVER CLIMBED THE TOOF!?

 

SERIOUSLY!

 

THANKS FOR THE TR!!!!

 

[ 06-03-2002, 01:43 PM: Message edited by: erik ]

[avypoodle]

And you call yourself A Cascade Climber!?!?!?! Sheesh, some people.

[erik]

quote:

---

Originally posted by avypoodle:

And you call yourself A Cascade Climber!?!?!?! Sheesh, some people.

---

PROJECTS BABY!!! PROJECTS!!!

[chucK]

check out the Mountaineers climb schedule for the Tooth Mountie climb schedule. There are Mountaineers climbs for the Tooth scheduled on 20 of the 30 days of June!

 

I was up there on Friday. I got back down to the base at around 9:15 just as the Mountaineers group was showing up. So, I guess you don't have get up that early to beat 'em there.

[glen]

The mounties climb schedule is scarier than the weather forcast this season. Jeez.

 

Still, a fun day with some good folks on the summit.

[avypoodle]

Agreed, cool to meet you guys!! We'll have to team up for something a bit more challenging sometime in the future. Possibly an outing to Marymoore or at least some shopping at REI.

[Cpt.Caveman]

I personally think the TOOF is a rubble pile of insignificance in the summer. However if you disbeleive and want to climb it go fer it and enjoy yerself. Just clip the quickdraws to the members of parties as you pass on by. Just as good as bolts since they are so numerous

[chucK]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Cpt.Caveman:

Just clip the quickdraws to the members of parties as you pass on by. Just as good as bolts since they are so numerous

---

...and they move slower than bolts!

[Dru]

quote:

---

Originally posted by chucK:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Cpt.Caveman:

Just clip the quickdraws to the members of parties as you pass on by. Just as good as bolts since they are so numerous

---

...and they move slower than bolts!

---

sometimes the bolts at Vantage move pretty fast....

[glen]

[Lambone]

Glen, i thought we told you to quit bashing on the mountaineers...

[glen]

Who... Me?

 

[D-dog]

It may be totally illogical, but I'll gladly pay to help keep our trails in good shape in so forth. . .

 

. . . just as soon as my tax dollars stop being used to subsidize the logging of MY National Forests in the Tongass and elsewhere. If we took 1/10th of the annual logging subsidy and put it into backcountry maintenance, we'd be scratching our heads trying to think of new trails to build once all the old ones were spruced up and runnin' smoothly in a year or two tops.

 

And while we're at it, how about killing the AMD ethanol subsidy? That one was supposed to be "temporary" and it's been around, what, 20 years? How many billions out of the treasury coffers and into that company's pockets?

 

Conceptually I'm generally inclined to "pay to play." We value what we pay for, sad but often true. However, practically, it chaps my ass to be one of the only "payees" while alot of other slaker groups who have no legitimate claim to government largesse are ridin' the pork pony.

 

Finally, I think that every person who gets out and walks a backcountry trail comes back healthier, wiser, and saner. And THAT is something that a truly useful government would be bending over backwards to encourage. Fee systems, as others have said, will unquestionably drive down usage. This is a Bad Thing.

 

<end rant>

 

Peace,

 

D-d0g

[Off_White]

Hey, if we're not willing to pay for access to public lands, buy the tool a new truck, or help keep Archers Daniel Midland rolling in dough, then the terrorists will have already won!

[glen]

In a way, I'm kinda surprised that the Pres supports the Forest Service subsidy of logging, after all, he doesn't like it when people start cutting on Bushes. "Back off!"

 

Ouch!

 

[Peter_Puget]

Pay to Play is a nice phrase yet has the potential to ultimately corrupt our system. (In other words really it can f#@% things up).

 

1. Compel the organization to start making profit based decisions to maximize its empire not its mission. FS has already done this with incredibly bad logging contracts.

 

2. Removes at least partially control from the legislature/people.

 

Washington Example

 

One way WA State Parks gets funding is from a fund called “Parks Renewal and Stewardship Account” This fund is formed from “money raised directly from the State Parks system” When the legislature first allowed this reservation of funds, it was stated that it should have no impact on how the amount of general funds were to be allocated each year. Thus PSRA was a windfall originally designed to help the State Parks dept. make improvements and catch up on deferred expenses. In 1989-91, it was 21% of parks Budget. In 1999 it was 37%. Clearly the legislature began to reduce appropriations to the Parks dept preferring to instead let it earn its own way. Thus begins a dangerous spiral. Now here we are with a statewide deficit and some parks are now threatened with closure. Now if you are a Parks Director faced with such a landscape how do you weigh competing alternates? The answer is simple: you go with the ones that will pay their way. Do we really want the FS to follow this same road?

 

This road forks into two options. The “wilderness” areas with their support groups. Groups which have been unfriendly to climbers in the past. The government can say he we can’t support the roads and so on for these areas so lets call it a “wilderness” and make these guys happy. Then to offset it we will develop the hell out of these other areas.

 

I know this is written poorly but I had 30 seconds to write it and wanted to get these thoughts out.

[not_a_climber]

My concern is that there seems to be no cohesive vision for public recreation in general. I would like to see city parks, state parks, and primitive recreational wilderness use (hiking, climbing) supported without the use of a user fee.

 

The demo fees exclude those from the wilderness that can't afford it (and yes there are people that can't afford the pass).

 

A public demonstration seems the way to go to me. Unless we protest, the fee demo will be here to stay. I'd say it was a shoe in from the start actually.

[SEF]

The vision espoused by the "pay to play" proponents in Congress and the USFS is cohesive and troublesome.

 

"Pay to play" is the premise for Disneyland. We are now asked to accept that premise for no more than simple access to OUR National Forests. The originators of this crazy idea have a consumer mindset and would have us think we are purchasing a product from them when we climb or hike. I find that fundamentally offensive. The fact that business plans are getting more attention from USFS than forest management and stewardship plans really bothers me. Revenue generation and permit policing are taking resources from resource management.

 

We are told that USFS has a shortfall of revenue that must be made up with "user fees". That shortfall is not an accident, but a design by some in Congress who want the user fee system and want Corporate-Government partnerships in managing our national lands. We can afford to subsidize timber, mining and grazing interests on our national lands by the millions, but must soak the public to let them onto the public lands? Give me a break. FYI, 80% of the trail maintenance is done by volunteers.

 

Apologies for the diatribe, but I wanted to get this off my chest.

[Hayduke]

If each of you is willing to go to a trailhead with a Northwest Forest Park Pass sign and rip down the sign and throw it away maybe the people running this country would wake up and listen to the people.

 

Better yet, chainsaw the signpost.

[iain]

Those signs are made with some stiff plastic. Good luck. I noticed the Pole Creek TH sign is routinely sawed down.