Terminal_Gravity Posted January 30, 2004 Share Posted January 30, 2004 I tie in short on one or two pieces that will hold pulls from multiple directions with a clove and I do leave some slack below so it does not increase fall factor. I think that tieing in to running belays with an eight is a mistake...hard to untie and a weak point. The knot will be pulled in an unsuitable direction and possibly capsize. I also think that a worse mistake is to tie into most peices, especially with out slack. If you fall on a piece that you did not tie into it will give every thing below not just an outward but an upward pull, maybe zippering everything below. Talk about system faliure. SO, IMHO tieing into running belays is dicy at best and is dangerous without extra slack. In "Advanced Rockcraft" by RR there is a brief discription on an archaic solo belay system. If I remember correctly, you put a pully on a chest harness and ran a prusick around the rope to your main harness. with the right size prusicl the pully would keep the prusick from grabbing as you climbed but in a fall the pully would move up and allow the prusick to grab. I am not stating here that I recommend the system but Cassarotto may have used it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lancegranite Posted January 30, 2004 Share Posted January 30, 2004 You can still put a quickdraw on those pieces. For you super nerds out there, equalize two pieces with a rescue eight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willstrickland Posted January 30, 2004 Share Posted January 30, 2004 I also think that a worse mistake is to tie into most peices, especially with out slack. SO, IMHO tieing into running belays is dicy at best and is dangerous without extra slack. I agree with this more or less. I will only tie into a piece other than the anchor (with a clove) if it's a bomber multi-directional piece...basically a bolt or fixed pin. And usually if I've already done that somewhere on the pitch, or the anchor was bolts or pins, I won't do it again. The exception might be where the rope is running over a sharp edge. In that case, after getting a solid multi-directional above that sharp section, I'd tie it off with slack so as to not load the lower section of the rope over the edge. Another exception is when self-belaying with a self-feeding device like the Silent Partner. If you don't tie off the rope to an intermidiate piece or two on a long pitch, the weight of the rope hanging down can cause the device to self-feed rope, giving you a shit-load of unwanted slack. You might not even notice this is happening. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plexus Posted January 30, 2004 Share Posted January 30, 2004 Could somebody perhaps provide a diagram. I rope-soloed a couple of weeks ago for the first time on some easy stuff and it was work and also quite scary. I used clove hitches at the pieces, had a bomber anchor and worked it through me with a plate and a prussik. My biggest concern was the prussik melting, never took a fall, although there was an off-balanced move when freeing up the rope. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattp Posted January 30, 2004 Share Posted January 30, 2004 (edited) You guys are making good arguments in favor of NOT tying in to intermediate pieces or only tying into some of them. However, I slightly disagree with something implied in one small part of Strickland's post immediately above: on most pitches I have lead with a self belay, there have in fact been several places where I could place a bomber multidirectional piece or pieces - and not just where there was a bolt or a fixed pin; indeed, unless I am carrying a hammer, I would quite likely consider two camelots stuffed tightly into a hand crack and equalized to be much more "bomber and multidirectional" than a fixed pin I had not been able to test. We are talking about judgment calls that really have to be made in the field, and I would not treat an aid climb at Index the same way I would treat an alpine granite ridge climb or a basalt crack climb. The point is you better be pretty good at placing and evaluating your gear, you begter have a pretty good sense of your limits, and you gotta think about what you are doing. Edited January 30, 2004 by mattp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted January 30, 2004 Share Posted January 30, 2004 For freeclimb rope soloing an alternative to any sort of clove hitch or device is to essentially pre-tie all your backup knots in 10' loops and stack them in order on your harness. As you run out of slack in each loop you drop it off you harness, there is the option of clipping the fig-8 into intermediate pro or just leaving it or untieing it. I am skimming many details here. I am sure someone clever could search the googlenews archives to find the rec.climbing post I read about this. hmm mmm if you clip the loop into an intermediate piece and then whip on it isnt that a factor 2 fall on that piece Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted January 30, 2004 Share Posted January 30, 2004 you know all these self belay syytems are so much work and boring. aside from aid soloing which is even more boring for the belayer and hence ok for rope solo wouldnt it just be simpler and more effective to develop some social skills and find a partner, OR, go freesoloing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronco Posted January 30, 2004 Share Posted January 30, 2004 I like and have used Mattp's "discretionary" system in the rain at Index. Actually I think he got me started roped soloing at the only pube club ever held in Monroe. Bomber multidirectoinal pro below a "cruxy move" gets a knot. Not so bomber on easy terrain just a standard clip and go. Dru, why don't you see how hard it is to try to find a partner who wants to go climb for an hour after work when it's raining, dark and 34 degrees. Gene Pires and I think it's time for another Monroe Pube club. How's next week for everybody? Breaker breaker any takers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted January 30, 2004 Share Posted January 30, 2004 if you only have an hour just set up a tr and use your ushba or rocker.... you could climb 5 routes. and none of this silly clove-hitch shufling or loop tying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronco Posted January 30, 2004 Share Posted January 30, 2004 Your system is too boring, how are you suppose to have an epic on toprope? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thinker Posted January 30, 2004 Share Posted January 30, 2004 A low-tech low-cost system I've seen used where one can set up a toprope is a series of fig8s or butterflies tied 5 to 10 feet apart, rope anchored at the top, 2 cowtails on the harness leapfrogged up the loops as you climb. Just make sure the cowtails aren't longer than your reach. One really old fart told me he used to dangle a rope down a cliff (anchored at the top) and when he felt like he was going to fall he just grabbed the rope with his hand to stabilize himself. Either he had brass balls or it was fairly low angle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris Posted January 31, 2004 Share Posted January 31, 2004 I don't tie into pieces. Doing so eliminates any dynamic quality, and until you've added gear, you've now created a Factor 2 point in your system, and now you have to climb further to reduce the force factors on the tied off gear. To be further confusing, picture this. You've climbed 50 feet above your upward-directed anchor (with the rope attached to with a screamer for shits and giggles), and have reached the crux. If you tie into that bomber piece before the crux, you have effectively elimanted any dynamic propoerty of the rope and if you blow your next piece will create a Factor 2 fall onto that tied of piece. Good luck. I would rather attach a screamer to that bomber piece below the crux and move. This, I think, is the more dynamic, force absorbing, safer method. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EWolfe Posted January 31, 2004 Share Posted January 31, 2004 Yet another for tying off to pieces. The exception I have made to this rule is when there is a bolt near the anchor at the bottom, and I tied in for back-up to the anchor with a single locking biner/clovehitch. I have also used heavy-duty bungee cords in the anchor system when the crux is low to add further dynamics to what is basically a static anchor point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chriss Posted February 1, 2004 Share Posted February 1, 2004 There is thing, was popular for a while a few decades ago, called a Gibbs Ascender. These days they would be called rope clamps, or grabs or somesuch name. This "ascender" could be had with no spring in the cam that clamps the rope. Therefor it wouldn't "grab" until weighted. It was also "assembled" around the rope and reasonably strong. I have one and have used it a few times. Works well enough. There are probably better specialized tools these days. I won't comment on how to use it. If you've seen one, you should be able to figure it out. chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lummox Posted February 1, 2004 Share Posted February 1, 2004 There is thing, was popular for a while a few decades ago, called a Gibbs Ascender. These days they would be called rope clamps, or grabs or somesuch name. This "ascender" could be had with no spring in the cam that clamps the rope. Therefor it wouldn't "grab" until weighted. It was also "assembled" around the rope and reasonably strong. I have one and have used it a few times. Works well enough. There are probably better specialized tools these days. I won't comment on how to use it. If you've seen one, you should be able to figure it out. chris an ascender can cut a rope when dynamically loaded. so have fun self belaying wit that shit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chriss Posted February 1, 2004 Share Posted February 1, 2004 The Gibbs is not an ascender like those of today. It had no "teeth". Didn't use a spring loaded cam. The load is not carried or applied by the frame. >> Do not use this device for anything other than that recommended by the manufacturer. << And ropes will break in knots, in devices, anywhere the rope is compromised when stressed. chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lummox Posted February 1, 2004 Share Posted February 1, 2004 The Gibbs is not an ascender like those of today. It had no "teeth". Didn't use a spring loaded cam. The load is not carried or applied by the frame. >> Do not use this device for anything other than that recommended by the manufacturer. << And ropes will break in knots, in devices, anywhere the rope is compromised when stressed. chris i know wtf a gibbs ascender is. and they will sever a rope if loaded dynamically. they are fukin notorious for it --ESPECIALLY the older ones. but dont believe me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billygoat Posted February 1, 2004 Author Share Posted February 1, 2004 I think that one would use the Gibbs as a top rope soloing device. The purpose of this thread was exploring older self belaying on LEAD techniques. Basically, how would you do it w/o a Soloist or Silent partner device. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EWolfe Posted February 1, 2004 Share Posted February 1, 2004 The Gibbs is not an ascender like those of today. It had no "teeth". Didn't use a spring loaded cam. The load is not carried or applied by the frame. >> Do not use this device for anything other than that recommended by the manufacturer. << And ropes will break in knots, in devices, anywhere the rope is compromised when stressed. chris i know wtf a gibbs ascender is. and they will sever a rope if loaded dynamically. they are fukin notorious for it --ESPECIALLY the older ones. but dont believe me. Give 'em hell, Lummox! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chriss Posted February 2, 2004 Share Posted February 2, 2004 Well put there, Lummox. Thanks for adding that note about the dangers of improper use of climbing equipment. The Gibbs was used as a solo device, both lead and toprope in the 70s. Which was the topic of the thread. While hardly "notorious" for shredding ropes, it can and has damaged ropes in falls. It should also be noted that it is one of the strongest and most "rope friendly" ascenders. I understand there are modern versions that are designed for dynamic loading. chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billygoat Posted February 2, 2004 Author Share Posted February 2, 2004 Chriss, could you please diagram or describe how the Gibbs was/is used as a lead solo device. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lummox Posted February 2, 2004 Share Posted February 2, 2004 Well put there, Lummox. Thanks for adding that note about the dangers of improper use of climbing equipment. The Gibbs was used as a solo device, both lead and toprope in the 70s. Which was the topic of the thread. While hardly "notorious" for shredding ropes, it can and has damaged ropes in falls. It should also be noted that it is one of the strongest and most "rope friendly" ascenders. I understand there are modern versions that are designed for dynamic loading. chris gibbs aint known for 'shredding ropes'. oh no. it cuts it real clean like. with loads as low as 2000lbs. you dont 'understand' much. but thanks for resurrecting one of the worst fukin self belay methods. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattp Posted February 2, 2004 Share Posted February 2, 2004 (edited) I do remember using the Gibs both for self belay on a top rope, and for leading. I never thought it felt all that secure, though, and here again I always backed it up with a real knot. But what do I know -- the way I read this discussion, several of you guys suggest that I am nuts to worry about hitting things during a fall and there is no judgment call involved - I should always set my self belay so as to provide a "dynamic" belay because the dangers of the static catch always exceed those of hitting a ledge (the way I figure it, if I am on a wandering pitch or ridge climb and do as you describe, I may have 10 extra feet of dynamics in the system - and maybe more - before the end of the pitch). I don't remember any widespread announement that the Gibbs ascender was unsafe in any particular announcement, though I suppose there may have been one. My impression is that it just fell out of common usage in pretty much all applications. I believe the fact that it is not spring-loaded, and therefore feels less secure than a jumar, had something to do with this. Edited February 2, 2004 by mattp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fern Posted February 2, 2004 Share Posted February 2, 2004 googlenews archives to find the rec.climbing post I read about this. tada 1) Tie a figure eight at a rope's mid-point (I use a 65m, 10.5mm rope). 2) Coil half the rope and put it over your shoulder with the the trailing rope and figure eight behind you (I usually have it over my right shoulder draping on my left side and my rack on my right). 3) Clip a locking biener w/ the gate down and out on the right side of your your waist belt, and clip the figure eight into it. (see harness note at bottom of post...). 4) Clip six more regular bieners down and out on your waist belt between the locking biener and the normal front rope tie in point. 5) Starting at the mid-point figure eight, tie a figure eight every 15 feet or so and clip each one into successive bieners along side the first locking one. You should end up with a figure eight in the end of the rope clipped into to the a second locking biener next to your normal front rope tie-in point. You will now have about eight big loops of rope coming off the front right of your harness. 6) Set a bomber anchor holding an upward pull and clip the end figure eight loop (the one on the end of the rope on the first biener next to your normal rope tie-in point). 7) Start climbing placing pro and clipping it normally, dropping figure eight knots off your harness as you go (make sure the gate is locked on that last one!). [Don't clip the figure eight knots into your pro, but do make sure a knot is above a piece of pro it the rope will allow it.] 8) When you are down (up) to the locking beiner you're at the rope's mid-point. Set a good downward (or better, a bi-directional up/down) anchor and clip yourself into it with a sling or daisy chain. Remove the mid-point figure eight off the locking biener and clip it into your anchor. 9) Uncoil the half a rope you have over your shoulder, throw it down and rap back to the beginning of the pitch. 10) Clean the bottom anchor, clip the figure eight that was on the anchor onto the locking biener next to your normal front rope tie-in point. 11) Second the pitch cleaning and re-racking as normal, and reclipping the figure eight knots back onto the bieners on your waist harness. 12) When you get back up to your high-point anchor, clip in with a sling or daisy chain, recoil the half rope you just rapped on and put it back over your shoulder (or leave it hanging, up to you...), take the rope's mid-point figure eight off the high point anchor in front of you and put it back on the right-most locking biener. Go back up to 6[.5]) and repeat steps 6-12 until you are at the top. It seems unwieldy and strange at first, but after a pitch or two I get pretty comfortable with it all and rarely, if ever, get things tangled up. I've been doing it reliably for 22 years and the system uses no mechanical devices save for carabieners. Because there are no belays I can usually climb a route in about 1/2 - 2/3's the time of a two-person team even though I climb the pitches twice. Over the years I've looked at every mechanical soloing device / technique I came across(except Silent Partner 'til the other day) and never liked the look or feel of any of them and so always just used the YRS. After hearing others' enthusiasm for the Silent Partner I went and looked at it and other than being a tad big I think I will probably get one and start using it as it as I think it would be a lot cleaner a system on the whole. Joseph Healy ============================================= Harness setup note: ============================================= You have to have a harness set up some how to do this, as you need to have 8 carabieners hanging off you waist harness w/ the gates down and out (and one of them locking). Metolius custom made one up for me a while back that has 8 super tape loops sown vertically around the front right of the harness. These loops wrap completely around the waist belt with a short loop to clip a carabiener in coming off the bottom edge of the waist belt. Before that I used a harness with a piece of one inch webbing that tied in front on the waist loop, went around the right to the back tie point, with a couple of tacks in the middle (sort of like extended gear loops, but these lay flat on the waist harness and don't droop off it). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lummox Posted February 2, 2004 Share Posted February 2, 2004 I don't remember any widespread announement that the Gibbs ascender was unsafe in any particular announcement, though I suppose there may have been one. My impression is that it just fell out of common usage in pretty much all applications. I believe the fact that it is not spring-loaded, and therefore feels less secure than a jumar, had something to do with this. mmkay. you got some senioritis dude. just check the specs on a gibbs ascender and you will find mention of 'rope damage'. not good. (dont believe me. do a google or sumpin). and the fact is a gibbs ascender is 'spring loaded'. they basically suck for climbing needs since they dont have a handle and they require two hands to get them on and off a rope. and backing up one with a knot wont prevent rope damages. i dont understand reticence to believe that theyre dangerous. you guys got an extra chromosome or what? as for old school self belay: two locking carabiners with the rope tied to each with a clove hitch. pull out slack and alternate locking biners as the route dictates. you carry the rope in a pack on your back and it aint a bad idea to be tied in to the end. you need two hands so this is better used for aid climbing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.