Why don't climbers developing new routes post here

[klenke]

There are the separate forums for areas of the Cascades where the trip reports get deposited. Unfortunately, they get sprayed upon in there by those who don't know how to offer anything constructive.

 

The problem with Internet message boards is they (specifically, the threads within them) inherently come with a high entropy. They always trend toward chaos. The more minds weighing in on the matter the more different directions the thread will go. That's why you often see people say things like "thread drift" and "back on topic."

 

I agree with you, Katherine, the spray camaraderie (if that's what you want to call it) is often what keeps this site entertaining. Getting rid of that would do this site a disservice. That said, I wish people would tone it down with their trip report "lowest-common denominator" critiquing--like when someone like lummox or trask makes some assinine comment just to make a post where no post says so much more. This must give compunction to those who would otherwise post their knowledge more often.

[ken4ord]

It's been awhile since I read much on here, but isn't there already a separate "trip reports" section? I would think a trip report about setting a new route could go there just fine, and everyone could go search for it, and it wouldn't get buried in all the spray. Which I do agree is frustrating, but I also agree that the spray is what keeps a lot of people reading. Me, for example.

 

I agree the spray keeps things flowing, but spray could be kept in spray with references/links to the original post in the spray section. That way the thread is strickly all TR's and/or new routes, which would be the section I would be most interested in reading.

[richard_noggin]

alpinek

Skin a little thin dude, dish it out but can't take it . Hey i'm a Dick what did you expect!

Ever think some of the route setters you are dis'n might have avatars

Walk a mile in a route setters shoes and you might understand over bolting, you can always skip'em but if a climber was to take a dirt nap on a route you run out...just think about it.

 

Cracks are all natural and are to be enjoyed for what they are, a bolted route and especially a sport route is more of a creation, and are as different as the climbers that set them.

 

I'm a DICK

[richard_noggin]

Post deleted by Off_White

[Peter_Puget]

Hey Dick, I look at it this way - given the large number of new routes done every year since the same few climbs get brought up over and over again the FA guys can't be doing too bad of a job.

[mattp]

It all comes down to what you want from the site. DICK is absolutely right: talk s*$t about route setters, and most of them are going to do whatever they can to avoid having information about their routes posted on the site. Nobody in this discussion has credibly refuted that simple fact.

 

I have had numerous new route setters tell me that they do not want their routes discussed on this site because they believe folks here will talk shit about them and maybe even try to cause trouble with the rangers or go out and start chopping bolts. They are right: with notable exceptions, this site's discussion of new crag developments or routes has been mostly extremely negative or even hostile -- while I bet most climbers enjoy and recognize some value even in the worst of these overbolted "atrocities." Will some of these climbers keep their routes secret anyway? Yes, for some of the reasons Alex listed. But some would not if the atmosphere on this site were different.

 

The guys who've done the shit talking, and to some extent we moderators who allowed it, have made a decision whether we want to acknowledge it or not. We've decided that talking shit is more important than getting beta from people putting up new routes. To some, that is a good thing; to others, not.

[Bug]

I haven't used a hammer in years and the routes I do were there before you and me. So any critique would have to be directed at a higher source.

Pretty much every time I go alpine, I do a new route because I can never follow Becky's descriptions. This would insulate me from any route spray but quite frankly I like spray. Stop spraying and I'll get bored.

[pope]

The guys who've done the shit talking, and to some extent we moderators who allowed it, have made a decision whether we want to acknowledge it or not. We've decided that talking shit is more important than getting beta from people putting up new routes. To some, that is a good thing; to others, not.

 

Genuine, honest, heart-felt objections to the feverish pace of bolt-trail blazing are only considered to be "talking shit" by those who wish to bolt whereever and whenever they wish.

[marylou]

I helped to put up a new route a couple of summers ago, and from the drubbing I got here for not being experienced enough to put up a new route, I'll probably never post about an FA again.

 

It was good fun, I did it with a guy who's super-experienced, and I learned a lot. Maybe I am thin-skinned, but I didn't appreciate the drubbing.

[AlpineK]

I'm well aware you are a dick, Dick.

 

I think you are confused with what I said. I haven't made one single personal attack on a route setter. What I did say is that one route setter established a route that has way too many bolts and belay anchors. If a route setter can't take comments like that without throwing a fit then I think that they are the ones who are too thin skinned.

 

You exagerate quite a bit when you start talking about climbers taking dirt naps. If you or others set bolts 40' apart off the deck on a route where the first pitch was either the crux or almost as hard then the route might be underbolted. However if you place a bolt every 6' on a 5.7 pitch where the crux of the route is 5.10 then you've overbolted.

 

Sure you can skip bolts, but I would say that it takes away from the routes aesthetics. If you establish a 5.10 route then you should bolt it so that a 5.10 climber can reasonably climb it without getting wigged; you shouldn't bolt it so a 5.8 climber can hangdog his/her way up the route.

[richard_noggin]

I can't believe I surf here

Edited January 23, 2004 by richard_noggin

[Crackbolter]

AlpineK,

 

What do you expect is going to happen as a result of your complaints?

 

I'll bet nothing at all.

 

Why don't you go chop what you disagree with? You can then show the purpouse of your efforts by climbing the same routes without the unnecessary bolts.

 

Just be sure to plug the holes with epoxy and take some sand and cover the epoxy up so it looks natural.

 

There are a lot of routes out there, some need some improvement. Please either put in your time fixing the problem or quit complaining.

Edited January 23, 2004 by Crackbolter

[RuMR]

I'm well aware you are a dick, Dick.

 

I think you are confused with what I said. I haven't made one single personal attack on a route setter. What I did say is that one route setter established a route that has way too many bolts and belay anchors. If a route setter can't take comments like that without throwing a fit then I think that they are the ones who are too thin skinned.

 

You exagerate quite a bit when you start talking about climbers taking dirt naps. If you or others set bolts 40' apart off the deck on a route where the first pitch was either the crux or almost as hard then the route might be underbolted. However if you place a bolt every 6' on a 5.7 pitch where the crux of the route is 5.10 then you've overbolted.

 

Sure you can skip bolts, but I would say that it takes away from the routes aesthetics. If you establish a 5.10 route then you should bolt it so that a 5.10 climber can reasonably climb it without getting wigged; you shouldn't bolt it so a 5.8 climber can hangdog his/her way up the route.

 

Kurt, the problem w/ this approach is varying levels of comfort while leading regardless of one's actual capabilities...

 

I have several friends that can boulder in the v9 range but are very uncomfortable leading much harder than 10's and that's on sport routes...

 

So how are you going to benchmark "comfort" for respective grades and leaders???

[catbirdseat]

Give us break, Tony. Kurt's criticism was rather mild. He's no bolt-pullin' pope-type. If no one ever commented on routes, then route setters wouldn't get the input they need to do better.

[jon]

How is it that people can be so critical of cc.com but are unwilling to listen to criticisms of their own actions?

[RuMR]

Give us break, Tony. Kurt's criticism was rather mild. He's no bolt-pullin' pope-type. If no one ever commented on routes, then route setters wouldn't get the input they need to do better.

 

I didn't read Tony's post as unnecessarily harsh...i think all he said is feel free to go fix something you don't agree w/...personally, i'm waaaay too lazy to do much of anything other than make a comment or too...

[mattp]

I agree that Kurt's criticism was "rather mild," Catbird, and it may also have been "heartfelt" (to borrow a term from our good friend, Pope). However, I was sorry to see salt rubbed into an old wound and in that respect I may understand part of where Crackbolter's coming from. I think it a poor idea to urge people to go out and start pulling bolts, though -- for many reasons. That's a whole different discussion, though, so lets' not get into it in this thread.

[catbirdseat]

I'm sure he meant it faceticiously.

[jon]

There are a lot of routes out there, some need some improvement. Please either put in your time fixing the problem or quite complaining.

 

Hey I have a $1000 sitting here for new hardware to upgrade existing rotting hardware. All you have to do is write a 500 word essay on why you hate cc.com so much.

[Crackbolter]

No, I am serious. I see no problem with fixing something you see as a problem. Just don't go patting yourself on the back by posting it on this site. AlpineK climbed Condorph. He whined about the bolts due to his own standards of bolt spacing. In his case, he is merely a spectator commenting about something without any further action taken other than what comes from his easychair. RUMR, you too need to put your time in. Ask PeterP, Viktor, Darryl and Matt for a list and get to work. I am sure you probably have your own list as well.

 

To be a diplomat in this community, you need some drill and crowbar time I think. Otherwise, you really are just another climber whining about the bolts. So whats new?

[mattp]

I'm equally serious, Crackbolter. While I share your appreciation for action over words, and there are certainly plenty of undeserving bolts out there, I do not think it is a good idea to advocate that people go out and start chopping bolts. I recognize you are advocating for "responsible" and "judicious" bolt-pulling but this activity can get out of hand just as can bolting and we do not need bolt wars in Icicle Creek. Also, it can be quite hard to get the little bastards to come out cleanly and I'd rather see a route left alone then have somebody make a mess of it. Lastly, I think it is highly dubious for someone to appoint themself a rock cop and I hope that anybody who sets out to "fix" what they perceive as a "problem" has a cool head and the ability to adequately assess whether their imposition of their standard on the rest of us is any less egocentric than the actions of the "offender" who placed too many or inartful bolts in the first place.

[Crackbolter]

I was directing my comment to Kurt. I see him as a worthy candidate since he has plenty of knowledge in bolting ethics as you can plainly see.

 

The point I am trying to make is that fact that anyone can be critical since criticism is easy but when it comes down to it, no one has any intention but to cause awareness. Even at the cost of their relationship with their peers. I see no point in creating a web-mob to deconstruct an individual about a particular route other than to have the result be negative.

[Thinker]

To be a diplomat in this community, you need some drill and crowbar time I think. Otherwise, you really are just another climber whining about the bolts. So whats new?

 

I'm not sure this is always true. The last thing I'd want to see is for an individual going out to 'fix' what they perceive as a problem without a wider discussion with the local climbing community in general and some consensus.

 

Certainly participating in this type of discussion, contributing resources (time AND money), and maintaining a health community are all important factors in this issue.

 

But maybe an online forum (or at least THIS online forum) is not the place for this discussion. I suspect that such communities exist in most regions. I'd bet that route developers in the Leavenworth area, for example, let each other know if they see something that looks excessively bolted, squeezed in too close to another route, trivial, contrived, chipped, or anything else. Hopefully they complement each other on jobs well done, too. (note: both bolted and trad routes included in above commentary.)

 

In my opinion, it's a shame that there's not at least one cc.com forum that is able to maintain an environment conducive to healthy discussions about the these issues. There ARE obviously some developers who post here, but there are also obvious and significant missing persons.

[RuMR]

Nope...i don't have the time/energy/initiative to do "cleanup" work and the way i see it, you can't please everyone all of the time...

 

I agree w/ Tony...posting on the web about fixing something is not a good idea...just go do it, and be quiet about it...no need for a ruckus...

 

A good case is the disappearing pin on iron horse, nobody made a stink and no war/fight was initiated...climb up there, its gone, deal w/ it and move on...there's good gear there anyway...on the flip side, the pin was nice to have in place...

Edited January 23, 2004 by RuMR

[EWolfe]

One of my routes was chopped last time I was down at Smith.

If someone feels vehemently enough to undo the job one does, one should first seriously consider why.

 

I wasn't bothered by it, personally. Someone pointed out to me that the climb I did will always be there.