Restoration

[willstrickland]

quote:

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Originally posted by halfpint:

pull the bolts on retrobolted climbs- but first, make sure that the first ascentionist wasn't agreeable to the retro bolting. top-ropes do not count as lesitimate ascents, as far as i'm concerned. but people do need to be able to put up new lines

---

/FoghornLeghorn mode=on/ Well damn, I say damn...that boy's about as sharp as a bowling ball. Sit down and listen up boy.../FoghornLeghorn mode=off

 

Look halfpint, there is NO shortage of first ascents just waiting for someone to step-up. All over WA, OR, BC are plenty of untouched lines, but they usually don't have a trail to the base, aren't 5 minutes from the road, and probably won't get your name in a guidebook. And I mean independent lines...not some "oh you can't use the crack on the other route that's off...

 

New lines at a "climbed out" area usually involved two scenarios:

 

1. A bold, runout, superhigh difficulty independent line that has only been recently climbed because of advances in abilities and gear

 

2. A squeeze job that's probably been TR'ed 20 years ago by some guy in EBs and cutoff Levis. Gets put up because someone wants A) an ego boost B) something new to play on C)something to help disperse the crowds

 

If you've climbed everything at the area that you want to climb, then start climbing somewhere else. If it's too crowded...start climbing somewhere else. If your ego needs inflation that badly go see a shrink cause you got problems.

 

As you can tell from my "help me plan the summer" post, I don't know the NW for shit. Still, I can pick up a guidebook and read the page that says, and I quote:

 

"The crag is 200ft at the highest and separated into large buttressed sections of granite-like quality rock along the slopes of this majestically scenic sub-alpine valley. The climbs at present range from 5.8 to 5.12, but virtually limitless route possibilities exist on this basalt crag"

[allthumbs]

Heh Will, you still living at the bus station or did you get an apartment? Just curious.

[willstrickland]

Now that you mention it trask, living in the van. Got hassled by the man last night...some dumb-shit janitor called the pigs when I drove into our gated/locked parking lot at work last night to crash. I used my mag-card on the gate, and the dumb shit still called the cops.

 

I'm almost asleep, stoned, and this 1,000,000 candlepower spotlight comes shining in my window, then I hear a dog barking..."Awww shit, not the freaking drug dog!" Cops beat on the side, I come out show them DL, work ID, give them some BS story about my girlfriend booting me out of the house...one cop says "looks like you've been spending more than one night in here" to which I give the 'ol "well you see I do quite a bit of rock and mtn climbing and I spend alot of weekends camping in this rig, so I've got it all set-up" Other cop goes "yeah, see he's got those funny shoes" pointing to the two pairs of rock shoes on the floor of the van. We talk climbing for 5 minutes and they split saying as long I'm not an intruder the crashing in the lot is between me and my employer...Now can I get some sleep?

[allthumbs]

Good story!

 

Nice to see that Five-0 can cut some slack now and then.

 

[max]

So to keep the ball rolling here, I'd like to see a list of the top five to ten routes most deserving a chop. Be specific in what route, what bolts, and why. Once the list comes out, we'll see if anyone has a beef and can support their complaint.

[erik]

quote:

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Originally posted by max:

So to keep the ball rolling here, I'd like to see a list of the top five to ten routes most deserving a chop. Be specific in what route, what bolts, and why. Once the list comes out, we'll see if anyone has a beef and can support their complaint.

---

you know max, this appears to be a good idea in concept...but in reality i dont think anything productive could come out of it.....other then name calling and other various types of b.s. that goes along with this whole mess.....

 

best thing to do with errant bolts, it to leave them be, and to stop putting others in.....

 

certainly there are routes that deserved to be chopped, and certainly there are bolts the deserved to be replaced and certainly there are bolts that need to be placed.....

 

but i do not think that this limited scope of 4 guys saying 'yes' or 'no' is the forum to do it....

 

and i really think any action wheter it be chopping/removal/retro-bolting should be done with out a spectacle or horn blowing......

[Crackbolter]

Here is a question for all you crow bar carriers... What routes are retrobolted without the FFA or FA's approval? I can't think of any right now. Also, before you go and start yanking them out I dare you to lead the route without clipping the darn thing. Then it may warrant a little questioning but it still doesn't really allow an actual trip specially for chopping. Maybe you could just contact the FA (and discretely tell him/her that you led it without clipping that 3/8" plug. I'll bet then you will get your way unless your balls have a thicker coating of brass and they are the size of basketballs then you just need to quit leading routes and start soloing them.

 

"Someone buy that damn drill!"

[Retrosaurus]

quote:

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Originally posted by erik:

best thing to do with errant bolts, it to leave them be, and to stop putting others in.....

---

That would be the best thing except for the fact that bolts beget bolts and that if errant bolts are allowed to remain it is like implied conscent.But yank a few prominent ones in a public way and maybe all will get the message.

If you leave them be it does not stop, it only accellerates.

 

The bolts on the slab at Little Bridge Creek need to go and I think the Dogleg TR does too.

[willstrickland]

As a bolt-chopper myself I'll throw out a thought:

 

Even if we have a forum, make a list, come to some mutually agreed upon list of restoration projects....we, the ccdotcom'ers still are only a fraction of the climbers. This has been stated before in threads like "climbing community" etc. While on a personal level I would like to see all routes that have been bastardized restored, I am only one climber and everyone has an equal ownership of our public lands/resources.

 

I don't care for pussyfoot tactics, and while I sympathize with Erik's view, I say stand proud if your going to chop something. People WILL find out who did it eventually, and if you're secrective about it, it makes you look like a sneaky-assed weasel. We NEED people like Retro to anchor the "chop it" end of the spectrum just like we need someone on the "bolt it" side so that the vast majority in the middle will have the benefit of considering the pros/cons of situation through the debates that result from these viewpoints. This (my post) is getting long-winded even for my liking, but my main point is we need to involve the larger climbing community (oxymoron or not) outside cc in these issues, if for nothing else than the chance to educate the generation that started climbing after the 80's bolt revolution. Also to say "here's what's acceptable to the trad-dads and here's what will get chopped"

 

FWIW,

- Will

[erik]

MAYBE WE SHOULD ASK A PROFESSIONAL THEIR THOUGHTS ON THE MATTER....

 

CALLING DOUG LARSON.....CALLING DOUG LARSON.....

 

WHAT DO YOU AND YOUR COLLEGUES SEE IN A BOLT WAR.....

[imorris]

quote:

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Originally posted by max:

So to keep the ball rolling here, I'd like to see a list of the top five to ten routes most deserving a chop. Be specific in what route, what bolts, and why. Once the list comes out, we'll see if anyone has a beef and can support their complaint.

---

Uh, License to Bolt ?

[beefcider]

I agree with will on that idea that the issue in general cannot be decided by the minority of climbers that is represented here. Personally, I like bolts for now. When I can climb 5.10 trad I'll probably hate them. here are my thoughts:

 

1) We have to keep in mind that most of the land we're talking about is public. If people start ripping out bolts it's going to get noticed by the officials who run the public lands. In Leavenworth this is Chelan County. Trust me, you don't want to deal with them. They will shut the whole area down for an extensive and inconclusive study that restricts climbers from using the land. Same goes for the NPS and the NFS.

 

2) As has been said earlier, by many others, cc.com represents a minority of the climbers using the area(s) mentioned.

 

3) The person who has the FA does not own the rock or the route and that means they really don't have any say in what happens to it whether they like it or not. This is not saying that they don't deserve respect but seriously, anyone who thinks that they should be consulted because they got the FA isn't seeing the big picture. Just because Hillary/Norgay got the FA on Everest doesn't give them the right to regulate the mountain, even if they wanted to. What happens after the person who got the FA dies? Can the route be bolted then? The argument of "I did it first, it's mine" really doesn't get a person anything except a bit of notice and a lot of headaches when people bolt the line that supposedly belongs to them.

 

4) bolting, retro-bolting and bolt removal all cause rock damage. Wasn't that the point of so-called "clean climbing"? Here is a scenario: I go and do and FA on an obscure but rad line and then someone comes and bolts it. I go out and remove the bolts leaving permanent damage to the rock. Someone comes along and re-bolts the line and it starts all over again.

 

5) there is a lot of talk about the lack of an actual "climbing community". so get one together. you really want to begin to solve this issue? Plan a large meeting (not at a bar), get organized and present your issues. Everyone has an opinion about this so get them together and let everyone decide it. Give everyone ample notice and let them become part of the community that will decide.

 

6) there are always going to be bolted lines and there will probably always be people needlessly retro-bolting lines. I think that if enough of the local climbers got together it is possible that some areas could be resrticted to trad or sport only. Again, this would take a major turnout and real respect for the choices made by the group.

 

FYI: I don't bolt routes and never will. I'm not for retro-bolting either.

 

I apologize for the long post and hopefully didn't contradict myself. This is a serious issue and will probably result in restriction of land use if it isn't solved by the people who use it. I'm sure that many will dissagree with me and so bring da heat.

 

Damn, I needs me a shot of Johnnie Walker Blue Label...

 

[pope]

I agree with Erik when he suggests that restoration should be performed without making a spectacle. Contrary to the belief of a few of you, this thread wasn't started to stir up a bucket of shit. Fact is, arguing about the issue is getting to be rather dull. Instead, I'm just soliciting some help in the war on bolts. I want to hear from people who are willing to spend a day in an attempt to erase what amounts to only a handful of aberrations from common sense. Send a PM if you wish.

 

Only recently did I become involved in such work. I'm not hiding my involvement...shoot me a PM and I'll be happy to answer detailed questions. I don't wish to discuss particulars in this thread, but I will say that I'm approaching these questions from a compromised stance. While in theory I'd like to see all rap-drilled bolts chopped, I'm certainly not that radical in practice. Instead, I think that restoration is appropriate under the following circumstances:

 

1. Bolts have been placed to convert an established TR problem into a "lead" route.

 

2. Retro-bolting of an established lead climb radically changes the nature of the route. (This is not justified since we now have a nearly limitless supply of super safe, thoroughly bolted routes. An old classic that was bolted on lead and subsequently led by many parties should be left in its classic status, although old 1/4" bolts should certainly be replaced.)

 

3. Bolts have been placed within a body length or so of a naturally protected route.

 

4. Bolted routes are squeezed in at a "traditional" cliff, such as Castle Rock (Leavenworth). Castle Rock has mostly escaped unrestrained bolting, making it unique among cragging areas. Given that the establishment of one sport route is often interpreted as justification for another, we will make every effort to discourage the spread of sport climbing to Castle Rock and similarly unmolested cliffs.

[RURP]

This is RURP:

 

That one guy, he wrote, "I'd like to see a list of the top five to ten routes most deserving a chop."

 

Here is the short list: Vantage.

 

RURP has spoken.

[erik]

HEY BEEF,

 

first of all, why is okay to bolt the rock??

and why should people be able to bolt non-controversly, yet to remove a bolt needs to be a controversy...sounds like a one way street with people going both ways......

 

sport climbing gives an easy intro into the sport, but at the same time it leaves you with only a small aspect of the sport.....

 

1: you lose the the respect you have for something that might be as safe.

 

2: you rely on others to protect the route, putting their judgement over yours. yet when you are climbing it is you and not them that has to deal with the consequences.

 

3: bolts, as most people seem them as bomber protection forever. yet these things are placed in the cliff and are subject to the same forces and elements that the cliff side is....these materials age and will need replacing at sometime....who does that?? does not replacing bolts damage the rock too????

 

you claim that bolts are only an issue for .10 trad leaders, well i am a fourth class specialist and granted i am not opposed to bolting out right, i am opposed to rappell bolting, excessive bolting, poor bolting and i am strictly against quarrying for routes that require bolts to protect.....

 

there are methods of patching drilled holes in the rock, and i think anyone whom does remove a bolt has the responsibilty to do it corectly and have as little impact as possible....and not patching a hole is not doing it correctly....

 

enjoy and be safe

erik

[pope]

quote:

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Originally posted by beefcider:

 

We have to keep in mind that most of the land we're talking about is public. If people start ripping out bolts it's going to get noticed by the officials who run the public lands. In Leavenworth this is Chelan County. Trust me, you don't want to deal with them. They will shut the whole area down for an extensive and inconclusive study that restricts climbers from using the land. Same goes for the NPS and the NFS.

 

---

Three things give climbers an unfavorable image and promote restrictions on our passion:

 

1. trash

2. trash

3. trash

 

To a climber, a bolt or a sling around a tree might be a beautiful thing, but to hikers and land managers, they are alien and ugly. Crowds of climbers and social trails are alien and ugly. Turds and butt-wipe are alien and ugly. A crowded, popular cliff at which one finds fixed anchors (and other alien trash) is always a candidate for restrictions. A small handful of climbers placing stoppers and Friends who then leave the cliff the way they found it...that is never a problem.

 

When I was about 16, my neighbor had a enormous boulder out in his woods. I went out there and scrubbed a few lines, even invited some friends. The guy was cool about it even though he didn't have to be, even though he was exposing himself to litigation. One day my buddy Dave decided the boulder needed a TR anchor and hand-drilled a 1/4" bolt on top. The owner was outraged and expelled us, and I never returned. That was my first lesson in natural climbing, and I learned it from a man who doesn't climb. It's common sense: bolts are alien and should be avoided. Bolts and the crowds they attract are the entire reason we even need an Access Fund (to quote Dwayner).

[Szyjakowski]

man almighty...bolting is such a simple endeavor:

if there is no safe gear placements within climbing reach...ie. widget placement in a horizontal crack, seam, flare, etc. then... dont place the bolt...as for the tr on alpha rock (which my buddy bolted last year), is it really worth the trouble to remove...isn't the lead still topropable? Perhaps removing all the bolts on the cracks of Condor would be a better timewaster instead of climbing. Replacing old time bomb bolts is a Very GOOd idea but trying to find out if joe smoe's tr is ok to bolt...come on, get real...topropes certainly are meant to stay tr's for a reason, unless of course the only way up to set up the tr is some scary, loose, avalanche gully or goat trail past snake dens. Then doesn't making the tr a lead route seem legit.

Btw check out whoopsie pillar near sam hill...not a tr since three years ago (but be prepared to place gear too), also some good trad lead to the left...and a project variation tobe finished someday.

Remember unless you can't see bolts all the way to the anchor taking a few widgets and nuts with you could prevent the ground fall and in leavenworth many bolted routes are mixed leads (and i don't mean with Ice)...why didn't god make more continuous crack systems in ltown, the world may never know. But seriously, cliffs less than one pitch are not always sport climbs...

and thats my $4.19 worth...anyone got a penny???

(<-me drinking margarritas tomorrow and the next day and the next...etc)

[beefcider]

Erik,

 

As I said, I'm not for bolting or retro-bolting routes. I use existing bolts but often find them scary as hell.Let me rephrase one of my statements. I'll probably like bolts less when I learn to set my own pro. I agree that there are alot of routes that need to be restored and am even willing to help do so.

 

What I'm getting at is that we can go and clean the bolts, restore the routes and leave the area spiffy. It just seems that a real community effort is needed to keep rap bolt happy folk from going out and drilling the routes again and causing further damage. My statement about rights from the FA are just a point in being realistic, that's all.

 

I'm all for going and restoring some of the routes and I'll hopefully learn something.

[erik]

quote:

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Originally posted by beefcider:

Erik,

 

I'm all for going and restoring some of the routes and I'll hopefully learn something.

---

email me then.....i'm not chopping, but upgrading.... learn both sides of the story, you can alway argue better.....

[beefcider]

I'm gonna have to agree with Pope on the trash issue. I spend alot of time packing out others trash, be it a nest of ratty slings on a fixed anchor to flat out garbage at campsites.

 

 

the question is: how do you keep a restored route from being re-bolted?

[jhamaker]

I like the 3 ft splayed foot catspaw. Its only drawback is the lack of a hole to tie a lanyard to, so I put 3 or 4 prussik wraps down from the neck w/ 5 mm cord and epoxy the prussick knot.

 

3M sells a good clear epoxy that can be mixed w/ rock chips from the base of the cliff to fill in bolt holes.

[pope]

quote:

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Originally posted by beefcider:

the question is: how do you keep a restored route from being re-bolted?

---

That's an excellent question, and I've struggled with it in forming my opinions. Ideally, you'd attempt to contact the person who placed the bolts and start a dialogue. You could offer to pay for the hardware damaged and return the hangers. You could even compromise and allow one or two additional bolts, in the event the guy has added a bunch of bolts to an old X-rated death pitch. Let the guy know you're not an asshole. That's a good place to start. Check your PM's for a real example of this approach.

 

If you can't accomplish this, or if he refuses to talk about it, let him know that a number of people are offended, that it's not just some personal thing.

 

Finally, there's no guarantee that bolts won't reappear. Unfortunately, when other avenues have been explored, one might have to conduct restoration and hope for the best. As Retro points out, doing nothing amounts to silent approval, and local history demonstrates that bolting is contagious.

[TimL]

Its so funny how all of these small obscure, forgotten about lines are stirring such a huge controversy. But its not actually about the climbs, after thinking about the issue it comes deals with a much larger issue.

 

In regard to several folks in the climbing community using chest beating tactics to advance their views, they are only taking away from PNW climbing and doing no good for the climbing community. The scare tactics used by the above folks and radical standpoint in the issue is no way to further a constructive solution. In the same realm, a "you suck" attitude achieves nothing as well. These scare tactics need to stop for the sake of the climbing community, land owners and everyone else involved. A small extreme minority with a certain radical view point may eventually hurt the majority if this continues.

 

The larger issue in which I was thinking about yesterday involves 2 parts: 1.) The growing pains on the PNW climbing community and 2.) balancing the history of ethics in the LW area. Granted with increased use of the area, ethics are going to change. I do think the change should reflect and respect the history of the area. I understand there will be pockets of extreme groups on either side of the issue, but nothing productive or positive will happen unless a desired balance is attained. Since climbers pride themselves in a general lack of higher organization or authority, several scenarios could happen. In the long run the problem will handle itself for the better or worse by the groups involved. In a turn for the worse, land owners could get pissed and close climbing areas. I would hope through web or personal discourse the problem could be handled on its own.

 

I have never been an advocate of mass bolting. I wasn't happy to see DDD bolted but neither was I happy to see it chopped. I was not happy to see the Dogleg variation bolted. In regard to the Dogleg variation, I tried to lead it on gear. I found out it is doable but rather ran out. I ended up clipping 1 bolt at the crux. Obviously in my mind, except for a few hardmen, the bolted variation would be hard to naturally protect and for the average climber would be undesirable/dangerious to lead without a certain number of bolts. I think a good balance in terms of the Dogleg variation would be at the time of its conception to bolt around the places were gear is available and leave naturally protected areas bolt free. Granted , I would not of liked to of seen the climb bolted, now that its done the damaged needs to be minimized. I don't think it needs all the bolts and believe it would be a fun mixed climb.

 

I'm sure I'll see plenty of you guys out there climbing. Maybe then we can kick around the issue. My 2 cents have been thrown into the mix. As for now, this topic is draining and I'd rather concentrate on actual climbing.

[Greg_W]

quote:

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Originally posted by beefcider:

3) The person who has the FA does not own the rock or the route and that means they really don't have any say in what happens to it whether they like it or not.

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Traditionally, the style in which the first ascent was done dictates future ascents (i.e., going from nailing to placing clean gear). This, in a sense, gives the first ascensionist some sort of ownership.

 

Pope, check your PM's.

 

Greg

[rayborbon]

I think that you are going to need a mob with crowbars and a lot of time on your hands.

 

I am going to focus my time climbing mountains and making more enjoyment out of my spare time. I dont advocate all the rap bolting but I simply dont have time or further desire to pull out any more bolts.

 

I dont think any of the lines mentioned are too much of a concern. They are not worthy of my attention or concern. It's not like someone rap bolted Brass Balls or ROTC or MF Direct...

 

Crusade if you have the time. I'll be off making my tick list larger and taking photos in the real mountains.