Proud to be a school teacher!!!

[Cpt.Caveman]

Food for thought.

[ScottP]

"Yet, every objective testing measure on student performance indicates that private school teachers do a better job than public school teachers"

 

Better include in the comparisons:

percentage of ESL (english as a Second Language) students.

percentage of LAP (Learning Assistance Program) kids.

percentage of IEP (Individualized Education Plan)students (both academic and behavior.)

percentage of low income families with students enrolled.

ratios of student to teacher.

ratios of dollars to full time enrollment.

 

It seems that Mr. Moore is missing some objectivity in his column.

 

 

[Jim]

There you go again. Clouding the issue with facts rather than vague innuenendos.

[erik]

certainly the items scott offered are issues as well, but why dont you answer up to the other issues. excuses rarely get the job done.

 

and i would like to say that in high school we had this teacher ms. skidmore. worst teacher ever....she would eat while she lectured routinely named items wrong on the map, messed up facts and was an ardent propoent of video teaching. she was the worst teacher ever...yet there was no recourse against her, as she was the district union rep. there were repeated complaints about her before and after i attended to shcool. that the union protected her, now that is fucked up.

 

and the day she broke her chair sitting in it...she kicked out all the students who laughed....

 

 

[catbirdseat]

I am generally pro union, but I believe the Teacher's Union works against quality. It is the main roadblock to improvement in public schools.

[Jason_Martin]

Though private school teachers get paid less it is important to look at one other MAJOR factor that hasn't been addressed, parents. Parents who are willing to pay for schooling for their kids are often more involved in the school process.

 

I've had the opportunity to teach in both public and private schools. Public schools are a zoo. You spend half of your time just dealing with attendance issues. Private schools are nice. Comparatively there are few discipline problems and a lot of resources for teachers.

 

The guy who wrote that article is an idiot. He has clearly never been in a public school situation as either a teacher or administrator. Public school teachers do deserve A LOT more money. The work they do is tremendously hard.

 

Since I left teaching I've had the opportunity to do a lot of different jobs and so far I have done nothing more difficult than teaching and nothing that paid less.

 

Jason

[allthumbs]

Cpt.Caveman said:

Food for thought.

Ray, a teacher's greatest enemy is his fellow teachers. They can be some of the most conceited, self-serving, tunnel-visioned people that I know. They think nothing of playing politics with the kids, which is just plain wrong.

 

If the teacher's unions were to clean house, institute some self policing, lobby for some meaningful education laws such as changing legislation so that you can weed out the deadwood, or actually repealing some of them and start to demonstrate as a whole that they really are in it for the kids and not just a paycheck, then teacher's would stand a much better chance.

 

There are some excellent teachers out there, but when the occupation as a whole is characterized by the most outspoken of those who happen to be in a position of union leadership and come off with the characteristics I mentioned above, then it hurts all teachers.

 

We need competition in this field, not government protection from competition. When that happens and it's truly free competition, then the cream of the crop will rise and the deadwood and problems in this occupational field will be weeded out and education will succeed.

 

[ScottP]

trask said:

Cpt.Caveman said:

Food for thought.

Ray, a teacher's greatest enemy is his fellow teachers. They can be some of the most conceited, self-serving, tunnel-visioned people that I know. They think nothing of playing politics with the kids, which is just plain wrong.

 

If the teacher's unions were to clean house, institute some self policing, lobby for some meaningful education laws such as changing legislation so that you can weed out the deadwood, or actually repealing some of them and start to demonstrate as a whole that they really are in it for the kids and not just a paycheck, then teacher's would stand a much better chance.

 

There are some excellent teachers out there, but when the occupation as a whole is characterized by the most outspoken of those who happen to be in a position of union leadership and come off with the characteristics I mentioned above, then it hurts all teachers.

 

We need competition in this field, not government protection from competition. When that happens and it's truly free competition, then the cream of the crop will rise and the deadwood and problems in this occupational field will be weeded out and education will succeed.

to that Trask

 

Erik,

To speak to the union issue, I've got to say that for the most part, I pay a shitload of union dues for little more than some nebulous protection against a possible lawsuit. I certainly can't point to anything the NEA, or even the WEA, has done to improve my lot. My local association on the other hand has done a damn fine job of bargaining for contracts that serve the interests of the teachers who sign them. We would be getting a royal screwing by the district if they didn't. I work with a guy who has been teaching for something like 35 years. He touts himself, with pride, as the district's highest paid video projectionist. He is a self-serving jerk and the protectionist climate in the unions keeps him in his job until he feels like leaving.

That said,

"Better include in the comparisons:

percentage of ESL (english as a Second Language) students.

percentage of LAP (Learning Assistance Program) kids.

percentage of IEP (Individualized Education Plan)students (both academic and behavior.)

percentage of low income families with students enrolled.

ratios of student to teacher.

ratios of dollars to full time enrollment."

 

aren't excuses. They are legitimate factors that influence the ability of a public school educator to effectively do their job. They are also factors largely absent from a private school educators position as well as from the vitriol spewed by the writer in Ray's link.

 

[JayB]

I think that any study comparing the performance in public versus private institutions would have to control for the quality of the student popluation to be valid. Put the public teachers in private schools with children that come from homes where the parents are willing to make great sacrifices to insure that their children are getting the best education that their children provide, with the kids that attend public schools. This will include a significant percentage of children with parents like the ones that I've just described, but will also include kids from all manner of homes who's parents are utterly indifferent to their children's educations, at best - and kids who have taken the lessons that their parents have provided to heart. My bet is that if you put public shool teachers in private schools and throw private school teachers into the average public school the desparity in their performances will dissapear.

 

As far as the teachers unions are concerned, one would think that promoting excellence and accountability would be in their self interest - at least in terms of increasing the value and respect that the public bestows upon the profession, and that some reform in that direction is long overdue.

 

Taking an example from my own experience, I had the privilege of studying English Lit with the best teacher I ever encountered - we are talking Dead Poet's caliber here. She left a lucrative job in the private sector, forked over $30,000 and two years of her life to get her Master's and her certificate - and did such an amazing job while student teaching that both the students and the faculty were demanding that somehow the administration find a way to keep her at our school. She blew away any college professor I ever had in terms of command of her subject, ability to transmit that to her students, and most importantly in her ability to inspire them. After staying at the school for one year the number of students dropped to the point where one English teacher had to go - and it was a choice between her and a fat, lazy, incompetent piece of shit that couldn't decide which he hated more - his job, his students, or his subject. He also happened to be the the school's union representative (there seems to be a pattern here). The other teacher was his superior by every standard imaginable except seniority - so she went. She ended up teaching 1st grade level stuff to a bunch of delinqents for a year, stayed on for another in the hopes of teaching high-school English again - then quit the profession in disgust when the spot she had been promised ultimately went to - drumroll - the union member with more seniority. This wasn't the first such travesty, and it surely won't be the last - but if I was a teacher this and other incidents of its kind are precisely the sort of thing that would inspire me to demand reform from within before the public imposes it from without.

[Cpt.Caveman]

I'm mostly skeptical about a unions working than I am individual teachers.

 

But the media zeros in the mass teacher complaints with good reason. However There have been some prime examples of what I am looking at exposed here.

 

 

[Dan_Harris]

I currently teach in a public school and have taught in a private school. Private schools can pick and choose who attends while a public school must accept whoever walks in the door. This alone would skew any comparisons. I know of quite a few very good teachers who left private schools for two reasons. One is to get better pay. There are very good teachers in private schools, but very often they are the second income in a home and not the primary bread winner. The other reason teachers leave private schools is that when there is a dscipline problem, very often money talks and the teacher is left out in the cold. As far as the union goes, our local leadership are generally people who I feel are loud, pushy folks who are not very good teachers. They seem to be more interested in their protectionist / money making policies and not what can we do to improve students learning. The really good teachers are not involved in the union because they are too busy going above and beyond the call of duty to help and work with students.

[Scott_J]

Jason, Trask and Dan

Public schools are indeed a zoo. I am in the quagmire of hell right now: a first year algebra class that thinks its fun to flunk. The bulk of this class think shit is good and shit will buy BMWs good homes etc.

 

I have seen union reps (good ones) try to help principals with teachers that need to be on plans of improvement. Guess what? The rep and the principal are usually bitch slapped. The union Rep was removed from his position by the union and the principal by the administration and school board. See school boards and head shed administration are afraid of lawsuits from parents, disgruntled employees etc. Apparently the public sector does not win in court very often. In fact in the 20 years I spent in the school system in Alaska I never saw the school district go to court. They always settled out of court.

 

Pick and chose students. Wow, would that be nice. As a wrestling coach I actually experienced a wee bit of this. The kids removed themselves. Sure I was left with some thugs, and slugs but they wanted to wrestle, so I had a handle on attitude and work ethic. If my wrestler did not measure up academically I pulled them until their grades improved. I ran a 45 minute tutor session before we went to practice with the rest of the team.

 

Parent involvement is very important to success for some kids, but not all. I think what a lot of kids want to hear and experience is a pattern for discipline, study time, etc. If these guide lines are made plain and simple most kids will conform to the plan. But then they need parents that are a roll model also, not some drunk, or drugged out piece of shit.