Public Schools Are Totally Fucked Up

[allthumbs]

The private and parochial schools are doing a much better job for less money. In one particular school district, they estimate that last year that district spent 210 million in regular taxes and 146 million in SPLOST to educate 32000 students - you figure it out! It's over $11,000 per student! That could send a kid to college!!! And they are scoring below the national average on regency???? Just look at Marysville, something is seriously wrong!

[arlen]

[Scott_J]

Trask, if you go ahead and research this instead of doing the John Q. Public reaction you'll find that its cheaper for private schools to educate kids because of Special Education mandates with the public education programs, English as a Second Language programs, to go with these programs remember there are administrators hired, secretaries hired, program directors, support staff, teachers, physiologists, etc., etc. And by the way Trask, if my kids were little again and I was living here in the Lower 48 they would be enrolled in a private Catholic School. I am in total agreement as far as quality programs, but when you start comparing money that is a TOTAL DIFFERENT ANIMAL.

Sisu

 

[RobBob]

Sisu, you've hit the nail on the head. If you run a business, then you almost intuitively focus your efforts on meeting the needs of the 80% of your customer base that is "standard." You know that if you spend too much money and focus catering to the needs of the "special interests," then you risk failing the 80% core group.

 

That is what's happened in the public school system. And because in this generation both parents work, public school also serves as a daycare, so politically it is harder to vote in a system that separates the special interests, be they ESL, "exceptional," discipline problems, etc. Who can justify putting a normal, bright young kid into the stew that many public school systems represent today, if one can afford not to?

[mattp]

Once upon a time we believed that education was important and that everybody in our society should have equal opportunities. Now, it seems, we have decided that public education is some kind of cesspool not worthy of our tax money and that there is nothing wrong with a system under which the richer you are, the better schools your kids can attend.

[minx]

my experience with private schools is a little different. i spent $10K a year in tuition and was required to offer up my time to help at the school and do fundraisers. i believe catholic school is a fair bit less expensive but that isn't an option.

 

when i moved to a better school district, i took my son out of private school and put him in public school. he is thriving and doing very well in this setting. his class size is reasonable (19 students) and he has come a long way academically. despite spending all that money on private school he was still struggling and it took an amazing public school teacher to help get him back on track.

 

this is the second year my son has been in public school. i continue to be pleased. perhaps its simply b/c of this school or this district but if they're spending $11K tax dollars/yr on my student it's a better value than the private school. he has more resources available to him and some great teachers guiding him.

[Scott_J]

Hey MattP, go spend some time in the public schools. You'll see. The time spent is not one or two days either. You need to spend a few years doing this. The average kid gets screwed daily out of educational time, money and opportunity because of the special interests, disrupters, etc. Go ahead and give it the thumbs down. BUT I KNOW I AM RIGHT AND THAT IS ALL THERE HAS TO BE. By the way Bud, a Catholic private school is not the most expensive...best maybe because of the no bullshit taken attitude. Kids going to a private Catholic ain't rubbin' elbows with the Gates, Allens, etc.

[RobBob]

I'm lucking out so far with a charter school that basically is there as an inclusive, tuition-free alternative to the snobbish private school alternative. We do donate time to the school, but in return we know that parents of the other kids are also committed to some service time, and are like-minded about learning, discipline, etc. Hope it lasts in its present form.

[allthumbs]

sounds like small-town magic

[Jim]

Why not, I'll latch onto the troll. Sisu is correct, public schools have to take all comers. Behaviorial problems, learning disabilities (of all sorts), larger classroom sizes, etc. And add to that the fact that kids in private school generally come from a higher income bracket with a two parent household where the parents are involved in the kid's schooling. Bravo to Sisu and other public school teachers for doing their best in a tough job

[Ratboy]

Religion and education are mutually exclusive.

[RobBob]

Let's also place some blame squarely on the shoulders of parents for today's mess. Lack of discipline is a core problem that IMO is often made into a medical problem like ADD.

 

How many of you were like I was, in a post-WWII first-grade classroom of over thirty kids. One old battle-axe teacher who ruled with an iron hand, no assistants. She had us divided up into reading groups within a month, according to ability and she was pretty damn accurate as I remember in her assessments of the kids.

 

If old Mrs. Y. were faced with thirty-some of today's first-graders, who are unused to discipline, play violent playstation 2 hours a day, etc., I'm betting she couldn't handle them.

[sk]

I moved to the side of town where I love now on purpose becuase I had heard that the grade school thing one currently attends is the verry best grade school in the district. I live in a very poor section of a very rich neighborhood. The rumors I had heard were correct. As far as my experience with public schools go, thing 1 attends an amazing school. He loves it. Every teacher he has had has been interested and concerned for him. They have made extra effort to comunicate with him as he has a mild speach impedament. I could not ask for more from a school. Before I got my job I was able to voulenteer in Thing 1's class and enjoyed it tramendously.

[Scott_J]

RobBob said:

I'm lucking out so far with a charter school that basically is there as an inclusive, tuition-free alternative to the snobbish private school alternative. We do donate time to the school, but in return we know that parents of the other kids are also committed to some service time, and are like-minded about learning, discipline, etc. Hope it lasts in its present form.

 

I have seen these types of charter schools WORK very well. When a parent spends the time to be there the kids will be more engaged. There was a good old gal in Anchorage that was placed in a horrible elementary school. The first year she nailed every behavior problem child there was...no expelling but daily detention, or kick out for a day.

Then she decided that troubled kids could stay in class and not be kicked out IF one or both parents attended school with the kid. Not necessarily in the same room but attended school for the time period that the kid would of been disciplined. Guess what? This lady's school did a 180-degree turn around. Grades started going up, problems started going down, some parents applied for jobs with the school district as they found that working with children was actually enjoyable. Virginia Jettier was an awesome principal. I worked for this gal in Big Lake, Alaska.

 

[Thinker]

A recent story related to me by two London parents shows they have similar problems. They tell of private schools there that essentially tell the parents not to bring the kid back next year it the kid hasn't performed up to their standards.

 

Many of the private schools have waiting lists and have no problem filling the spot with a (potentially) better student who is less of a trouble maker, a higher achiever, attends more regularly, or whatever the issue is. I'm pretty sure the same is true for US schools, too.

 

The result is that the public schools are saddled with the disabled, learning impaired, behaviour impared, etc. students. The legal obligation (in the US) to care and educate the 'disabled' kids is a huge burden (no value judgement meant to be attached to the selection of words here) that our system is simply not up to handling due to lack of funding, parental support, and probably many other factors I'm not even aware of. The result, in many cases, is that the average middle class kids attending public schools do get a lower quality education when the available resources are mandated to be funneled to the disabled kids.

 

Is this simply market economics in practice? Many would give a resounding 'yes!'. Is it right/ethical? Probably not. Is it reality? without a doubt.

 

What can be done to fix it? If I had the answer I'd run for office. On a microscale, those families with kids in public schools who feel they're not getting an adequate education can compensate in many ways besides sending their kids to private schools. Options I see include talking to the teachers and find ways to augment their lesson plans, find other things your kids are interested in and develop learning sessions based on those interests, take the initiative to have the kids spend time with trusted family members or family friends who can provide additional learning experiences.

 

Is it a shame we pay taxes for an educational system that's not providing a comprehensive education? Sure it is. But if you're not spending as much time trying to fix it or counteract the deficiencies as you are bitching about it, then that's equally as tragic.

 

Are you concerned and need ideas for ways to help? Try the big brother/big sister program, girls rock (Passages NW), talk to your family members or neighbors with kids and go to the Pacific Science Center together, buy some books at the thrift shop you think might interest the schoolers you're concerned about and encourage them to read them or at least look at the photos together and teach them something. The possibilities really are endless. Heck, taking a kid or 2 on a hike in the woods can provide the opportunity to talk about ecology, hydrology, geology, biology, and tons of other things. There are plenty of books available to help you brush up on the things YOU are interested in and help you explain them to students.

 

Some kids won't respond to any of this, and unless you have special training or skills it's likely beyond your skills to help. But finding 1 or 2 that do respond is an experience that you'll never forget or regret.

 

What are some other ways a concerned person can help? You teachers out there....what say you?

[scrambler]

I don't know a damn thing about education but is the idea of grouping kids together by chronological age conducive to learning? I suppose that rearranging kids by IQ tests or some other measure would probably produce other problems especially if the kids are in puberty. Just seems that mass education is just that, mass education. Maybe a specialized approach? Sounds almost like it'd take a grand mission like the Shot to the Moon for a revolutionary reorganization of education in America to produce the best damn kids (adults) in the world.

 

Ok, I'm gonna lay off the potent coffee. Later, gotta meet with some people.

[Scott_J]

I’ll tell you what. Ask Dutch and Glacier Dog about your idea Thinker. Ask them what happened to them and their experience in the system in Alaska. Then you will get a real answer from kids that went thru what you are talking about.

 

Now for my answer...YES, taking an interest in a kid or group of kids helps. It does not have to be an educator either. I tried teaching in Marysville like I did in Alaska. Guess what? It did not work. People here think you have an ulterior motive...

 

I liked to get kids interested in things and activities that don't sound like math, but math will always find a way into the formula. Hell, I taught history for three years and figured out how to get math and biology into the lessons. HA

Dutch was a student. I got him interested in climbing; Glacier dog was my wife's student (she was the gifted teacher). He is another great kid that was not interested in the system, as it existed.

Ask them if they appear online about school...don't ask adults as the kids.

 

[Scott_J]

Here is another subject within education that is alarming. Because of the Leave No Student Behind aka WASL. Washington State is considering the idea that all art, woodshop, auto mechanics etc. classes be cut and only the CORE subjects be kept.

 

Where I went to school as a kid we had two threads for kids to follow in high school. One was a college base and the other based for work as a miner or a trades person. BUT the important aspect of either thread was this. EVERY kid male and female had to have math, science, as well as the other humanities classes. The only difference being the math and science of the blue color thread was it had a semblance of reality. It was used in the shop classes during the course of the school year

 

[Thinker]

I agree that many parents are suspicious, and they should be. In today's sick society I think we have the best chance of helping kids thru your own family, and thru schools and organizations that do background checks and who provide direction and supervision. Short of that, a person really needs to have the trust of the parent(s).

 

From a legal and ethical standpoint I think it's important to have 2 or more adults around in most cases, especially starting out. I had a neighbor kid back home that started showing up on my doorstep, wanting to play the piano in my living room. I always called his mom immediately and let her know he was in my house, I left the front door wide open, and encouraged her to come over any time. Over the years the kid and I worked on cars together, built stuff in the garage, fixed his bikes, went to the lumber yard and the salvage yard together, did home work together, and trained my bird dogs together. I'm sure it took awhile for his mom to realize my intentions were altruistic, but they were. Could the whole experience backfire on me, still? Sure...he could go into therapy someday and confuse a bad experience with one of his step-fathers with one in my home, but I'm willing to take that risk to help a kid that shows potential.

[Jim]

The no child left behind stuff is a joke. For the relatively small amount of federal contribution to local schools the Bill is forcing major changes. While accountability and raising standards is a good thing, standardized tests should not be the only way to assess kids. Just teaching to the test and other "non-essential" items are going by the wayside.

 

Folks say they care about kid's education. But they don't DO anything. There's so many kids out there that need some guidance and help. Sorry your experience wasn't so good Sisu. I've been tutoring kids for 15 years now, even while my kid was still at home. I've worked with some developmentally disabled kids, and kids just having a bit of a hard time. All of them appreciated it and worked hard. One kid I tutored twice a week during the school year and during the summer for 4 years in High School. We keep in touch and he's in college in NYC.

 

Generally people are lazy. They want to have their nice lattes after going to the gym, or take Thai cooking classes in the evening rather than doing some voulenteer work. Teachers, health care folks, police, firemen (women) work hard enough. everyone else should be voulenteering on some steady basis. I mean WTF? Talk is cheap.

[RobBob]

Speaking of which, I'm going to have to leave you wankers in couple of hours to go facilitate a PTO meeting. I'm sure we'll have lots of exciting dialog. I'm going to open up by claiming that all the men in the audience have bribed me to keep the meeting to 45 minutes.

[minx]

i don't think you can tell any of us we should be volunteering. i have recently found an organization with whom i will volunteer some time and i have in the past with a different group. h/e this is related to the time i have in my life. and yes this does include activities other than work. ie. climbing.

 

regarding school and parental involvement. this is a different issue. volunteer in your own home and be there to help your kids w/school work, be involved in their school day, get to know their teachers and in some cases be involved enough to know when you can't help. i'm not a teacher and have no experience in teaching a youngster basic skills. active participation makes a difference. it would help if we were each responsible for our own kid's education instead of blaming teachers and schools for their failures.

 

 

[Dan_Harris]

Ratboy said:

Religion and education are mutually exclusive.

"Religion without science is blind, science without religion is lame." - Albert Einstein

[Jim]

minx said:

i don't think you can tell any of us we should be volunteering.

 

Yea, I can. Just as you can disagree. My opinion is that we are a very privlaged society that is growing increasing self-centered and unwilling to help some of society's less fortunate, and fixated on the latest TV shows or Hollywood scandal. Yet it's easy to spit vile about anything, while doing nothing to fix it. You like to climb? Cool, so do I.

 

But I still find time to give something back. You should too.

[ChrisT]

Right on minx. My two kids are also thriving in public schools - both straight-A students. But then, people shouldn't count on the schools to do 100% of the educating either...