debate fodder: lots of new climbers

[mattp]

I don't think anybody said that climbing was categorically BETTER than it was in the great golden ages that you celebrate, but you said it had categorically gotten WORSE.

[pope]

mattp said:

I don't think anybody said that climbing was categorically BETTER than it was in the great golden ages that you celebrate, but you said it had categorically gotten WORSE.

 

There is evidence to support this idea, if you operate under the assumption that while practicing mountaineering (and its derivatives), we should strive to leave the challenge similar to the way we found it, so that the next generation can go out there and have a little road-side wilderness.

[JayB]

Sport climbing provides a means of developing strength and technique that top climbers use to send trad/alpine lines that would have been beyond them otherwise, for one thing - I think that Polish Bob had a good rant about this a while back - besides being a legitimate pursuit in its own right.

[Dru]

bouldering is increasing the headpointing ethos. soon routes like the fly and hubble will be sent ropeless as a matter of course and the bolts will be unnecessary

 

bolts will be saved for where they are needed like on scarface for setting up the big swing - at anchors on diedre so guides can carry less gear and gapers can bail without leaving booty - in frankenstein's neck - and on musashi

[JayB]

GK/CPB's Comments

 

"Alpine climbing starts with good sport climbing background. Hey champ, if you can’t hang on to a 5.10 or a 5.11 clip up at the crag, how can you hang-on on vertical mixed pitch? How fast can you send 5.11 or 12, have you ever done 5.13, how about 14? Sport climbing builds strength, strength gives confidence, confidence gives speed and speed IS safety. I don’t say you’ll be able to start cranking hard alpine routes right away, but it is the necessary step every climber has to take. "

 

[pope]

JayB said:

Sport climbing provides a means of developing strength and technique that top climbers use to send trad/alpine lines that would have been beyond them otherwise, for one thing - I think that Polish Bob had a good rant about this a while back - besides being a legitimate pursuit in its own right.

 

How do we know these climbs would be beyond them without sportclimbing as a training tool? Who's to say that climbing in a gym couldn't make them just as strong? Who's to say they couldn't gain skill and strength by trying to free climb the Salathe, or run laps on Astroman? I agree that sport climbing can provide fitness that transfers well on steep alpine rock, but is it worth the cost? If grid bolting is the price we must pay so that a handul of sponsored, world-class athletes can inspire us, is it really worth it?

 

Wasn't Mark Wilford inspiring us already? Was anybody inspired when Peter Croft climbed that 5.13/14 crack in Idaho (can't think of the name...the one that Yaniro bolted), eschewing the bolts for RP protection? Prior to the sport climbing revolution, were there no cutting-edge alpine climbs being put up that inspired us?

 

That some talented, world-class alpinists use sport climbing as a fitness tool does very little to mitigate the mess I see in my back yard.

[pope]

And I'm really sick of your obscene, Whack MC image. Get some class.

[erik]

...

[cracked]

jkassidy said:

And I'm really sick of your obscene, Whack MC image. Get some class.

I'm really sick of your obscene auto sig. Pot calling the kettle black....

[pope]

cracked said:

jkassidy said:

And I'm really sick of your obscene, Whack MC image. Get some class.

I'm really sick of your obscene auto sig. Pot calling the kettle black....

 

That's not obscene. That's political commentary. I'm delighted to have the opportunity to educate you in this capacity.

[mattp]

jkassidy said:

There is evidence to support this idea, if you operate under the assumption that while practicing mountaineering (and its derivatives), we should strive to leave the challenge similar to the way we found it, so that the next generation can go out there and have a little road-side wilderness.

 

If you operate under the assumption that the only thing that matters is whether or not something has been bolted, you will find the evidence you seek. No argument there.

 

Otherwise the only concrete "on-the-ground" difference you cited was increased crowding in the N. Cascades. As far as overall environmental damage caused by hoards of climbers, I'm not sure the North Cascades as a whole or the Enchantments or most other areas around the state are in fact all that much worse off than they were 25 years ago. For example, there are fewer stomped out areas in the upper Enchantments now, I think, and the old climber's trail up the creek below the North side of Sherpa and Mount Stuart may have been more obvious in 1980 because recent trends have been to approach Stuart via Ingalls Lake. Some trails are more hammered by climbers who follow Jim Nelson's list of "select climbs" (example Black Peak) but other areas have been largely abandoned as some of the old logging roads hav been gated or washed away and some old trails have fallen into disrepair. The net effect is almost certainly that there are more climber impacted areas in the Washington wilderness, but it is not as if it is a whole new issue or a whole new level of magnitude. Nobody or almost nobody hacks at the trees to have a campfire at a subalpine lake anymore -- and they definitely DID do that in 1975.

 

As to crowding itself, it is true there are more people out there now -- there are more people living in the Puget Sound region and correspondingly there are more people in and out of town. But I encountered three other parties on the West Ridge of Forbidden Peak when I was there in July, 1981, and one of those parties was a group of 16 climbers from Simon Frasier University and one of them tied their dog at the base of the couloir like it was a sport climb so we had to listen to their hound bark all day -- I doubt there was a more busy day up there this season. Index probably had MORE climbers on any given day in the summer of 1980 than it does now. The west side of Mount Rainier has become wilder while Liberty Ridge has probably seen three times as much traffic. Exit 38 has a lot of climbers, but does that really bother you?

 

As to the lack of courage or conviction or proper Dwayner approved values that you complain about, beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. Yes, I'd agree that there are places with too many bolts but if your idea of a bold and respectable ascent was some runout deathfest like the Bachar Yarian and you think that is better than a modern route like "Crying Time," which has perhaps as many as ten times the number of bolts on very similar terrain, so be it. (I haven't done either route, so I can't say for sure, but I bet most of the rest of us would use the word "dubious" to describe the Bachar Yarian, not Crying Time). Few of the rock climbs you used to enjoy in Washington in 1975 have had any new pro bolts added (for rappel stations, I believe bolts with chains are more desirable than heaps of slings on bushes and flakes though I am sure you will disagree), and I bet the number of alpine routes that have been soiled as you so decry is even less. Yes, people take cell phones with them in the mountains these days and people who learn to climb at the gym have different expecations and goals than those who cut their teeth on Mt. Cruiser. But read the route reports on this bulletin board sometime and you will see: mountain climbing and adventure rock climbing are alive and well.

 

[pope]

erik said:

jkassidy said:

And I'm really sick of your obscene, Whack MC image. Get some class.

 

just like calling someone you consider a friend a whore?...that is class too!

 

 

 

Huh?

[JayB]

Pope said:

And I'm really sick of your obscene, Whack MC image. Get some class.

 

Yes, tell me about class.

[cracked]

JayB said:

Pope said:

And I'm really sick of your obscene, Whack MC image. Get some class.

 

Yes, tell me about class.

[pope]

JayB said:

Pope said:

And I'm really sick of your obscene, Whack MC image. Get some class.

 

Yes, tell me about class.

 

Well, my little Einstein, I'm happy to have provided you a distraction so that you wouldn't have to answer the questions I asked in post 272871.

[Dr_Flash_Amazing]

It's funny, on the vehemently traditionalist/old-school side of this discussion (or whatever it be), we have this argument about everything being grid bolted, etc. But most route development doesn't happen this way, most new crags aren't developed this way, and it's generally found to be unpleasant to have a bunch of routes squeezed into too small an area. That kind of shit happens at Smith now and then, and the buffoons that bolt that way get a healthy helping of shit flung in their direction. The fact is that this is just not a common practice at most areas, nor, for the most part, is it usually smiled upon.

 

And crowds? You wanna talk about crowds? DFA has been heading to Smith for the past 11 years, and yeah, for a while there, you were seeing more and more bolt-clippers queued up at the base of the popular routes. But in the last couple of years, the places the Doctor has been seeing the most people piled up are routes like Zebra/Zion, Karate Crack, Cinnamon Slab, Wartley's, and the like. It used to be a surprise to see someone on Z/Z, and you could go a couple weekends without seeing someone on Karate Crack. But lately, there have been a couple parties a day on both of those and more.

 

So how does that fit into your complaint? You can decry the way sport crags get developed and pine for the days of people practicing The Whole Pure and Natural Art of Organic, Free-Range, Hormone-Free Rock Climbing, but what happens when the crowds heed your words? You'll see a lot more people who agree with you about what kind of climbing is Right, sure, and you'll have plenty of time to talk to them about it while you wait in line for your gear lead of choice.

 

Not enough fringe dwellers in the sport anymore? Do YOU live out of your van, subsisting on picnic table leftovers and pillaged church picnic buffet food? Or is your 8-to-5, take the Volvo to Safeway, suburban lifestyle about as whitebread boring as the average sport monkey's?

 

Go ahead and bitch, just watch where you point that stick clip (oh, wait, it's a cheater stick for you guys -- sorry).

[rbw1966]

I think the rise in people climbing trad at Smith has more to do with Mazama classes and/or guided groups than anything else.

 

I can remember climbing at Smith before you had to pay to park. Back when you could see someoen climbing Light on the Path from the campground, in the dark, because of the neon lycra tights.

 

Those were the days.

[Dru]

dwaynerkassidy.... Peter Croft never freed Le Boogieman(13d/14a) in Idaho without the bolts... he onsighted Van BelleoDrome without the bolts.

 

Anyways he's putting up bolted crack pitches now in the ORG so where is your point?

[Distel32]

Dru- "The Fly" has already seen a ropeless ascent, I'm sure you already read that though.

[Dru]

Distel32 said:

Dru- "The Fly" has already seen a ropeless ascent, I'm sure you already read that though.

 

AND HUBBLE's NEXT!

[Norsky]

Figger_Eight said:

No shit. If you go and climb the REI pinnacle...you're a climber right?

And a damn fine one!

 

The past 3 times I've headed up to Squamish the campsite has been maxed out. Damn boulderers!

[pope]

Dr_Flash_Amazing said:

....and it's generally found to be unpleasant to have a bunch of routes squeezed into too small an area. That kind of shit happens at Smith now and then, and the buffoons that bolt that way get a healthy helping of shit flung in their direction. The fact is that this is just not a common practice at most areas, nor, for the most part, is it usually smiled upon.

 

So, you agree that grid bolting can be a problem at Smith. And your response is not to smile upon it. That must go a long way to dissuade the practice.

 

 

Dr_Flash_Amazing said:

And crowds? You wanna talk about crowds? DFA has been heading to Smith for the past 11 years, and yeah, for a while there, you were seeing more and more bolt-clippers queued up at the base of the popular routes. But in the last couple of years, the places the Doctor has been seeing the most people piled up are routes like Zebra/Zion, Karate Crack, Cinnamon Slab, Wartley's, and the like.

 

Eleven years? That's about half my climbing career. Anyway, this sounds like genuine progress. Good to see the bolt clippers losing interest in the fad (I think Dwayner predicted this), or is it that the bolt chasers have graduated from "playing at climbing" and are ready for their first 5.10a crack climbs?

 

 

Dr_Flash_Amazing said:

........but what happens when the crowds heed your words? You'll see a lot more people who agree with you about what kind of climbing is Right, sure, and you'll have plenty of time to talk to them about it while you wait in line for your gear lead of choice.

 

Your average Chris Sharma wannabee will find that he has a lot to learn about gear routes before he can get in line for the climbs I'll be doing.

 

 

Dr_Flash_Amazing said:

Not enough fringe dwellers in the sport anymore? Do YOU live out of your van, subsisting on picnic table leftovers and pillaged church picnic buffet food? Or is your 8-to-5, take the Volvo to Safeway, suburban lifestyle about as whitebread boring as the average sport monkey's?

 

Go ahead and bitch, just watch where you point that stick clip (oh, wait, it's a cheater stick for you guys -- sorry).

 

Yup. This is the kind of crap you resort to when you're clean out of arguments and clever ideas (usually comes pretty quick). Hey, I'm bored of the third-person thing.

 

[pope]

erik said:

im not trying to pick a fight with dwayner, i am just telling him his rhetoric is tiresome and pointless. he only uses his personal reflections on the subject to attempt to belittle other climbers.

 

he should just stick to with what he knows.

 

 

I happen to know it is a fact that Dwayner hasn't posted under that name (he's still banned) nor any other name since he was arbitrarily banned back in September, although he does check in to read posts and messages. Many people agree with what he says. I happen to be only one of the many.

[Distel32]

hey Jkassidy,

 

it soundsto me like you are tooting your own horn you chuffer.

 

saying all sport climbers can't even wait in line to do the climbs that you're doing??

 

I've got a couple sportos for you on this site who have done multiple climbs 13b and higher. They never spray about it either, so go back to your old school 10 trad lines and spray about those. Or do some 13b sports and then spray. I can't do either so I don't spray about either, but I will spray about V2 boulder problems

[cracked]

jkassidy said:

Eleven years? That's about half my climbing career.

 

Wow, you must be a climbing God! May I lick your boots?

 

Anyway, this sounds like genuine progress. Good to see the bolt clippers losing interest in the fad (I think Dwayner predicted this), or is it that the bolt chasers have graduated from "playing at climbing" and are ready for their first 5.10a crack climbs

 

Ever heard of the Huber brothers? They were climbing 5.13 cracks within their second day of trad climbing. Same with Sharma. He onsighted 13b on the Rostrum. Sounds like you're just grumpy cause they climb harder than you, trad or sport. Keep feeling superior, but you still suck.