am i an asshole

[erik]

for not caring about others who have died.

 

it is tragic, but not enough for me to feel emotional over it. i do not see the point in grandstanding with our emotions over something like this.

 

i have had a few friends die and a few family members pass it was sad, but i do not see how allowing these things in which i have no control over to rule my life?

 

someone in that accident did make a mistake. i dont know what it is and most likely never will know. but i have every right to think about it and pass conjecture over what i see as possbile errors on their part.

 

and to answer radon's question about who somethings just are not in our control. you are right, but i do not live my life in the closet afraid of the what i cannot control.

 

hate me whatever...

 

[AmberBuxom]

you are an asshole for purely genetic reasons. though one could make a fair argument for 'nuture'.

[sal]

this doesn't make you an asshole

 

i feel pain and loss when those that are part of MY life die. i don't know these people. i understand that it is sad for loved ones and friends but it doesn't cause me grief

 

i think questioning an accident is a good thing. it's a learning thing. perhaps people do it too soon after the fact sometimes, perhaps you're guilty of that? but "too soon" is a personal judgement.

 

but yeah, really, you're an ass

[j_b]

many people feel the way you do. even though i read anam every year, i do not like to discuss fatalities in a public arena or go to funerals.

[allthumbs]

I don't much give a shit when someone I know dies. Shit happens, we get old, sick, whatever. Fuck it, life goes on. Erik, you're a fucking bung sucker.

[AlpineK]

Passive aggressive, yes

 

Asshole, no

 

[scott_harpell]

but i do not live my life in the closet

 

yes. you came out of the closet long ago.

[Roger]

I don't think you're an asshole for not caring, because that's totally your business. But posting stuff about fallen climbers that says "well, it sounds like they were idiots and probably had it coming anyway" (esp. before any real facts are known) is guaranteed to piss people off, because it's just undeniably disrespectful. You may think that the institution of marriage is bullshit, but you are probably not going to stand up at your best friend's wedding and share your views with everyone.

 

Anyway, you asked, so there's my $.02.

[minx]

scott_harpell said:

but i do not live my life in the closet

 

yes. you came out of the closet long ago.

 

could you possibly be a little more creative? just b/c you can't keep your mind out of the closet doesn't mean you've gotta find something lame to nitpik out of decent post.

 

now go hold the closet door for someone else

 

i think this is a good topic. i've often felt the same way that erik has expressed here. death is a delicate subject and it's interesting to hear how people handle the discussions surrounding it.

[scott_harpell]

faq off... he put his foot in his mouth and if you agree with it, you deserve the sme lambasting he got on the other thread.

[erik]

scott_harpell said:

faq off... he put his foot in his mouth and if you agree with it, you deserve the sme lambasting he got on the other thread.

 

how did i put my foot in my mouth? i do not regret what i typed and i still think the same thing.

 

roger, never stated that they were idiots. i just personally feel that we can control more things then one believes but your awareness must be tuned. one is solely responsible to for their own actions at times like when climbing there is an understood trust between partners that no matter what climbing is 50/50. a good climber can and should reconize objective hazrds as best as they can, no matter if it is a runout, shitty gear, bad rock or whatever....grated this is not always possible, but we as individuals must try our hardest. i do not want to die and i certainly do not want to die climbing, so i personally take care in all situations to be as safe as possible.

 

please seem my other postings on the subject.

 

 

 

[minx]

scott_harpell said:

faq off... he put his foot in his mouth and if you agree with it, you deserve the sme lambasting he got on the other thread.

 

i think one or two people lambasted erik. but it seems that while many of us think erik is an asshole, not so many of us disagree with his view.

 

maybe he's being less tactful than others by stating it but it's obvious he's not the only one thinking it. i prefer that when an accident is close to home (ie. the recent death's at l'worth) that people slow down on their analysis of the details b/c there's a good chance someone "here" might know the deceased. but outside of that, i see nothing wrong w/assessing the situation.

 

haven't we all made stupid mistakes in life when a little more attention to detail would've spared a lot of grief? when climbing, i'm far more concerned with the consequence of my actions resulting in my injury or death than i am some freak act of dog/nature.

 

if you disagree w/erik, explain why. don't post some juvenille innuendo.

[adventuregal]

No. You're not an asshole. In a situation like this, even if I am not affected or don't care, I just try not to insult anyone who may be more emotionally connected. That's all I would recommend to you. You have every right in the world not to care... I just hope you, me, and everyone here never has to deal personally with a situation like this. Tho I'm sure some of us will/have...

[adventuregal]

minx said:

 

i think this is a good topic. i've often felt the same way that erik has expressed here. death is a delicate subject and it's interesting to hear how people handle the discussions surrounding it.

 

I agree Minx... just wrote a paper on death/dying and how our society treats it. Interesting subject!

[JayB]

Obviously there is no comparison between the grief one feels at the passing of a friend or family member and the death of a stranger thousands of miles away.

 

However, when I learn about the death of a climber, no matter how far away - it always strikes a bit closer to home for a couple of reasons. The first is the sense of community created by a shared passion. The second is the fact that I can easily think back to a number of frightening situations that I have survived that might have turned out differently. I think of the grief that must be overwhelming their friends and family after such an accident and can very easily imagine my family and friends going through the same thing - and the prospect of that makes me shudder. I can also think of the aspirations, plans, and dreams of routes, mountains, vistas enjoyed in the company of trusted ropemates that died with them, and in some ways feel the loss as though it was my own.

 

Though it will never even come close to grief generated by someone withing my own circle of friends and loved ones, I can't deny that when I hear about an accident like this I do, in some small way, pity the dead and grieve for those that they have left behind.

[Figger_Eight]

adventuregal said:

No. You're not an asshole. In a situation like this, even if I am not affected or don't care, I just try not to insult anyone who may be more emotionally connected. That's all I would recommend to you. You have every right in the world not to care... I just hope you, me, and everyone here never has to deal personally with a situation like this. Tho I'm sure some of us will/have...

 

[Jopa]

I think there are many ways to view this. In the Western culture the societal norm is to mourn death. By this regard you could be considered an asshole. However, it seems as though you reject those norms and choose another for yourself. So in the end, you yourself are not an asshole; but others who are subject to the more widely excepted norm of mourning death may think you are (unjustly, if you ask me).

 

 

 

[scott_harpell]

mabe you can just show some respect. it is entirely possible that a family member will stumble accross this board and see your comments. you probably dont care, cause you are an individualist bad-ass. you all love to think of yourselves this way. think about someone else for a change. i couldn't care less if you mourn for them, but let others do so, that require this.

[JayB]

 

In the Western culture the societal norm is to mourn death.

 

Off topic - but this is a universal norm. Different cultures have different ways of dealing with the grief caused by the death of a loved one, but the grief itself is hardly a "Western" construct absent from other cultures. The notion that there are entire cultures out there who observe the death of those closest to them with nothing more than the serene indifference that witnessing a leaf fall to the ground would generate within them is truly the Western construct, if there ever was one.

Edited October 22, 2003 by JayB

[Jopa]

JayB said:

Off topic - but this is a universal norm. Different cultures have different ways of dealing with the grief caused by the death of a loved one, but the grief itself is hardly a "Western" construct absent from other cultures.

 

I agree with you 100% but I was only referencing our culture. Still, it is Erik's decision. Should he be considered an asshole for not subjecting himself to a norm that has been socially constructed by others?

[scott_harpell]

Jopa said:

JayB said:

but this is a universal norm.

 

I agree with you 100% Should he be considered an asshole for not subjecting himself to a norm that has been socially constructed by others?

 

apparently you do not agree 100%

[RobBob]

[Jopa]

scott_harpell said:

Jopa said:

JayB said:

but this is a universal norm.

 

I agree with you 100% Should he be considered an asshole for not subjecting himself to a norm that has been socially constructed by others?

 

apparently you do not agree 100%

 

I agree that it is a universal norm; I'm asking if someone should be outcasted for deciding not to live by it.

[adventuregal]

I think in some cultures when someone dies it is more of a celebration of life rather than a sorrowful time. Of course mourning is necessary in any culture... but I think different people do it differently. I have no concrete examples, so please correct me if I am wrong...

[scott_harpell]

it cannot be a social construction and be universal. if remote tribes in s.america do this (and they do) then it is not a social construction. greif is universal, the manner in which we go about dealing with it is not. you cannot blame erik for his reaction, but you can blame him for his insensitivities to those that deal with grief in a way other than his.