Enviro-climber issues

[Cpt.Caveman]

Alex said:

fredrogers said:

Yeah, well it was a dumb place to camp, but I blame Tim, it was his idea.

 

This is where we were busted Sat night. At 11:01 pm. How ironic.

 

Alex

 

Was he cordial

 

With these tactics then it pushes people in to the often full campgrounds with Grammy and Grandpappy. What a viscious world it is.

 

But that is a stupid place to camp IMHO. Not slamming anyone.

Edited September 19, 2003 by Cpt.Caveman

[fredrogers]

Compared to the last time he busted me, he was quite cordial. He was still an ass.

 

And Alex, I was with you.

[Beck]

i'd recommend bivying more than fifty yards from your cars. what are you, a bunch of mounties? walk uphill for a half an hour or find a cave you can grovel in. Even though the tool has night vision now, he won't walk 600 vert to give you a ticket in the middle of the night.

of course, i don't officially endorse any unauthorized bivying

 

 

of course, NEWSTIPS, this illegal bivying is only theoretical mafeasance by climbers on FS lands, and in no way do any of us on this board engage in any types of despicable behavior like the reprehensible habit of "unauthorized bivying"...

[erik]

how can biving on public land be illegal? oh wait, you mean you are not paying to bivi, well now i see the problem. sleeping is now a taxable action. please step up to grammy's van and give her your money!

 

 

[Alex]

fredrogers said:

And Alex, I was with you.

 

Oh gosh! I had no idea who fredragers was IRL until right now! How embarrassing!

 

 

Caveman, quite right a dumb place to camp, but we'd gotten by with it all Spring so just figured nth time wouldnt be any different. Now we paid to cost of first hand edumacation!

[Fairweather]

NEWSTIPS said:

Hello Cascade Climbers!

 

I am writing to solicit more story ideas from any of you who have an issue that you think affects your community and needs some media attention.

 

We appreciate the help we received from you recently regarding stories we did not only about the Climbers who were jumped at Squamish, but also the car breakins at one of the lots frequented by climbers.

 

If you've got any other issues you think deserve attention, please let me know so I can persevere to educate our viewers (and myself in process) about climbing and other issues that affect climbers even if they don't directly relate to climbing.

 

And just so you know, I continue to attempt to make our Police spokespersons draw a distinction between hikers and climbers when they talk about SAR operations.

 

Thanks.

 

Elizabeth Berman

Assignment Editor

KING 5 TV

 

Elizabeth,

 

The title you have chosen for this thread, "Enviro-Climber Issues", leads me to the conclusion you may believe these two interests always run concurrent. This is certainly not the case.

 

Perhaps a story written to illustrate dissenting points of view within the climbing/outdoor community would liven things up a bit.

[fredrogers]

Actually, if I read the ticket correctly, it was for the "Placing camping equipment in a place not designated for camping." whatever that means.

[Bronco]

Beck said:

i'd recommend bivying more than fifty yards from your cars. ...of course, i don't officially endorse any unauthorized bivying...

 

What office are you running for?

[Sphinx]

We've already Beck to fuck us over when it comes to politicians, we don't need media coverage. Fuck, the Wall Street Journal actually published a article portraying climbers as a squabbling bunch of juvenile idiots. We don't need articles about Dwhiner vs me, climbers vs Larry the Tool, etc. Sorry newtips, I'd like to say out of the media's view.

[catbirdseat]

Sphinx said:

We've already Beck to fuck us over when it comes to politicians, we don't need media coverage. Fuck, the Wall Street Journal actually published a article portraying climbers as a squabbling bunch of juvenile idiots. We don't need articles about Dwhiner vs me, climbers vs Larry the Tool, etc. Sorry newtips, I'd like to say out of the media's view.

The fact is that some climbers ARE a squabbling bunch of juvenile idiots.

[Sphinx]

catbirdseat said:

Sphinx said:

We've already Beck to fuck us over when it comes to politicians, we don't need media coverage. Fuck, the Wall Street Journal actually published a article portraying climbers as a squabbling bunch of juvenile idiots. We don't need articles about Dwhiner vs me, climbers vs Larry the Tool, etc. Sorry newtips, I'd like to say out of the media's view.

The fact is that some climbers ARE a squabbling bunch of juvenile idiots.

Yes, and when that fact comes to the attention of landowners, FS officials, etc, they like to ban us.

 

BTW, catshiteat, you're as bad as I am.

[NEWSTIPS]

Beck said:

of course, NEWSTIPS, this illegal bivying is only theoretical mafeasance by climbers on FS lands, and in no way do any of us on this board engage in any types of despicable behavior like the reprehensible habit of "unauthorized bivying"...

 

That's a shame....I had my 6 pack all ready to go and meet you guys

[JayB]

Is the FS planning on closing the South Fork Road on the Snoqualmie anytime soon. If so, might be an opportunity to look at the conflict between recreationalists who want the road to remain open to preserve access to the mountains and those who want the road closed to for habitat preservation, enhancement, or whatever the case may be. As an isolated phenomenon it might not have broad enough interest to warrant broadcast coverage, but I am sure that there are quite a few old FS or logging that are used for access around the NW that might be closed soon...

[Fairweather]

JayB said:

Is the FS planning on closing the South Fork Road on the Snoqualmie anytime soon. If so, might be an opportunity to look at the conflict between recreationalists who want the road to remain open to preserve access to the mountains and those who want the road closed to for habitat preservation, enhancement, or whatever the case may be. As an isolated phenomenon it might not have broad enough interest to warrant broadcast coverage, but I am sure that there are quite a few old FS or logging that are used for access around the NW that might be closed soon...

 

JayB,

 

You hit the proverbial "nail on the head". The Middle Fork Snoqualmie River is "Exibit A" in my post above. It seems that a certain local "trails" advocacy group supports closing access to this magnificent area by gating the road at Taylor River in spite of what their membership thinks about it, and regardless of the fact that they represent only a very small % of the recreating public. At the public hearings I have attended, the support for closing the MF Road has been the minority viewpoint.

 

I view The Middle Fork/STMGreenway as a kind of test. If the "environmentalist" side succeeds in shutting down one of the most popular existing recreation zones in the state, there may be no stopping them. Will yourfavorite area be next on their list? Their goal is to lock out people. One and two day-trippers anyhow. Chimney Rock, Overcoat, Hinmann, Bears Breast, etc, etc, will all become mini-expeditions.

 

As for this area being unique re wildlife? At the last hearing I attended,the USFS actually brought in a wildlife biologist who tried to make the case that this area should be designated roadless for "Grizzly Bear habitat". WTF?

[Doug]

Newstips,

 

If you are looking for a story, there is an awful lot of mismanagement of public lands by the USFS. Not to mention their Fee Demo boondoggle. I say an expose' (read the GAO's report on the Fee Demo accounting) on the USFS might even garner someone a Peabody. Just don't give it to Jim Foreman to do.

[Fairweather]

...and if Jim Forman does get the story, can he wear that yellow K5 rain slicker and the big gloves too!

[Greg_W]

erik said:

ANOTHER GOOD POINT TIM. THE PRIVATIZATION OF THE FOREST SERVICE CAMPGROUNDS HAS BROUGHT IN OLD PEOPLE WHO FIND IT UPON THEMSELVES TO ACT AS THE DIRECT AUTHORITY. THEY WAKE YOU UP AT UNGODLY HOURS TO ENSURE YOUR COMPLIANCE WITH THE FEE. THE FEE INCREASED SINCE THE PRIVATIZATION HAS OCCURED AS WELL.

 

Erik: I was not aware that USFS campgrounds had been privatized. My understanding is that those campground hosts are hired by the Forest Service. Do you have information to the contrary?

 

Greg_W

[mattp]

One of the Seattle papers did a big story on the bolting wars at Vantage some time back, and I thought they did a pretty good job. The story featured Bill Robbins as poster boy for the anti-bolt contingency, and they alluded to his "colorful" reputation within the climbing community but presented him as an anti-bolt warrior who represented not a majority, but a significant number of climbers. Along with a vivid portrait of Bill, the story gave outsiders some pretty good background on the issue. Several years earlier, they did another story on this issue and there I think they used cands.net as one of their sources (they didn't give the URL, though). It noted that bolts were being indiscriminately placed on "Square Creek Wall."

 

Fairweather, I'm with you in thinking it is wacko to close public lands to recreational use, Fairweather. There are a significant number of people who have no interest in hunting, fishing, hiking or climbing and think the mountains should be protected from disturbance from people like us - and as I think you believe, I agree that on this issue our interests may have something in common with snowmobilers and dirt-bike riders. I sure hope NEWSTIPS doesn't do a story about this issue and present some anti-environmentalist as spokesman for climbers who want access, though. There are many of us who support environmental regulations, are willing to pay taxes for the clean up of air and water and the protection of our streams, want to see our public lands managed for long-term sustainability, and still want access.

[mattp]

GregW -

Have you been to a campground lately? Thousand Trails is running the show. Some of these "campground hosts" can be fairly pleasant, and I certainly think their presence has improved the situation at some campgrounds (an example being the one outside Darrington that use to be occupied by homeless people and partiers all summer) but many of them are rather obnoxioius as Erik pointed out. The push to use concessionaires to provide reacreational services and support on public lands is very definitely part of the current push toward privatization, and Fee Demo is another part of this program. Instead of retired people who drive around in golf carts acting like cops at Cle Elum Campground, the fees should be collected by idealistic college students who are seeking a forestry degree (in other words, somebody who cares about the place).

[Greg_W]

Mattp - No, I don't camp in regular campgrounds very often. I have this friend who likes to make his own with a weedeater and pruning equipment. I was honestly asking the question; I don't know. THanks for the info, though.