Dru Posted September 17, 2003 Author Share Posted September 17, 2003 since you seem to not understand the semantics, "niggardly" is an adjectival form of "niggard" which is derived from the Middle English, ultimately from Old Norse or thereabouts. variants include nitheling, nidderhead, etc. a cheap, mean, worthless person. nothing to do with skin color as opposed to various epithets derived from the latin negro, black, as in Gato Negro, route on Silver Star. the fact that the word niggard sounds like another word you are geting all worked up about, is a coincidence, nothing more. the fact your upset is so misplaced is what is funny and what makes you look foolish. perhaps some properly directed angst would be less amusing than your current earnest but misplaced angst. if you like I can also research and discuss how the phrase "chink" meaning crack or narrow opening, has nothing to do with a racial epithet spelled in the same manner and applied to chinese persons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allthumbs Posted September 17, 2003 Share Posted September 17, 2003 Dru said: jason - maybe you should look it up in a dictionary before you label the word "niggardly" as "hate speech" smart guy i believe you are in for a surprise Dru, it's interesting that Websters still allows this word/meaning. I suppose after all these years they're at an impasse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allthumbs Posted September 17, 2003 Share Posted September 17, 2003 Dru said: since you seem to not understand the semantics, "niggardly" is an adjectival form of "niggard" which is derived from the Middle English, ultimately from Old Norse or thereabouts. variants include nitheling, nidderhead, etc. a cheap, mean, worthless person. nothing to do with skin color as opposed to various epithets derived from the latin negro, black, as in Gato Negro, route on Silver Star. the fact that the word niggard sounds like another word you are geting all worked up about, is a coincidence, nothing more. the fact your upset is so misplaced is what is funny and what makes you look foolish. perhaps some properly directed angst would be less amusing than your current earnest but misplaced angst. if you like I can also research and discuss how the phrase "chink" meaning crack or narrow opening, has nothing to do with a racial epithet spelled in the same manner and applied to chinese persons. I couldn't agree more, Dru Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Attitude Posted September 17, 2003 Share Posted September 17, 2003 mattp said:I don't know what Marline and Jim did in the new guide -- are these route names in there? "Unfortunately, some route names were better left abbrevaited due to their possibly offensive nature. The complete route names can be found in the first ascent information for those of you who are interested. Abbreviated names are denoted with the symbol 8< after the shortened route name. For example: Tammy Fay's D8<." Too bad Tammy Fay (the climb) is gone. Why was Chinamans Peak in Canada renamed Ha Ling Peak? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt.Caveman Posted September 17, 2003 Share Posted September 17, 2003 Why was Chinamans Peak in Canada renamed Ha Ling Peak? When I was up there last summer one of the locals told me because they thought it was a little on the racist side. But that is nothing that I read. Nice peak with easy descent! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iain Posted September 17, 2003 Share Posted September 17, 2003 I think I read that in the ACC Gazette at one point. Something about the abuse of the chinese railroad laborers, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fern Posted September 17, 2003 Share Posted September 17, 2003 perhaps a better question is: given the peak was originally named Ha Ling Peak after the first ascentionist (a dude named Ha Ling), why did people instead choose to call it 'Chinaman's Peak' for almost a century? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Posted September 17, 2003 Share Posted September 17, 2003 Jason_Martin said: Now back to the subject at hand: Controversy over semantics and history and prejudice are simply not worth it in a climbing guidebook. Jason and I agreed a long time ago that the route names in our guidebook(s) would remain named as the first ascentionists chose. I'm a closet Vulgarian myself, and like spicy, witty, or downright vulgar route names. Things like "Wetter than Your Wife" and "Harder than Your Husband" are certainly more interesting reading than "The Smith/Doe Route". Mountaineers Books has graciously left the original names as is in our book too. Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted September 17, 2003 Author Share Posted September 17, 2003 Alex said: Jason_Martin said: Now back to the subject at hand: Controversy over semantics and history and prejudice are simply not worth it in a climbing guidebook. Jason and I agreed a long time ago that the route names in our guidebook(s) would remain named as the first ascentionists chose. I'm a closet Vulgarian myself, and like spicy, witty, or downright vulgar route names. Things like "Wetter than Your Wife" and "Harder than Your Husband" are certainly more interesting reading than "The Smith/Doe Route". Mountaineers Books has graciously left the original names as is in our book too. Alex Yes it is unfortunate that Wetter Than Your Wife was changed to Green Gully by Bill March. As for peak names changed: several features officially named Chinaman or ...men were changed by the federal government. Supposedly they changed all the things named Squaw too but i see Two Squaws Mountain is still officially listed as Two Squaws on the website Dildo, Newfoundland is still named Dildo though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Attitude Posted September 17, 2003 Share Posted September 17, 2003 fern said: perhaps a better question is: given the peak was originally named Ha Ling Peak after the first ascentionist (a dude named Ha Ling), why did people instead choose to call it 'Chinaman's Peak' for almost a century? According to a post on Bivouac.com, the climber named it Chinamans Peak. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter_Puget Posted September 17, 2003 Share Posted September 17, 2003 Alex what about names such as "Stinking Wet Whale Vulva" "Fisting my Female Belay Slave"? "Johnny Bachar Guzzles the hot salty load" was a route name at Smith that was changed. Approriately so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
klenke Posted September 17, 2003 Share Posted September 17, 2003 To add to Dru's point... The etymology of * and niggard (whence niggardly) is not at all the same. Because they sound very similiar, though, people erroneously assume the two words are etymologically related, and thus both offensive. The first word is definitely offensive. The latter is not or should not be. Heck, there's even "niggle" in the dictionary, and that word means "trifle" or "to spend too much effort on minor details" (hardly an offensive definition). "*" comes from "negro", which ultimately began from Latin "niger" "Niggard" is of Scandanavian origin, from "hnoggr" ("niggardly"), from Old English "hneaw" ("niggardly"). Niggardly, as defined in the earlier post link, means "stingy" or "miserly" in its broadest definitions. There are lots of words in the English language that sound the same but are not at all etymologically related. An obscure example would be that of "lickerish" (desirous gluttony, lecherous) and "licorice" (that black confection we all know and love [or hate]). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allthumbs Posted September 17, 2003 Share Posted September 17, 2003 nice research, klenke fuck man, I learn something new damn near every day around here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted September 17, 2003 Author Share Posted September 17, 2003 its a damn good thing you noted that some people hate licorice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scrambler Posted September 17, 2003 Share Posted September 17, 2003 (edited) Seems as a guidebook writer you'd want to consider your audience. Explicit sexual wording may be inappropriate for a general audience that includes children. You may not see it as such unless you have children. As for racial slurs, since I assume that the climbing public is predominantly middle class and white, you'd probably think it's all overblown. There just isn't a racial slur for a white middle class person that carries any sting. So, how could you empathize? I think many people think they're innocent because their intent was not specifically to hurt others. However, consider that you're using a loaded word, a word that carries a history of pain. Personally, I think that it's also on the offended party to nullify the word. Take, for instance, the use of the word, nigga. It is used within a particular group to show solidarity of identity. But, I don't know, I'm not in that social group, so what do I know? Edited September 17, 2003 by scrambler Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catbirdseat Posted September 17, 2003 Share Posted September 17, 2003 For some reason licorice candy has always been flavored with Anise extract. The sweetness comes from the glycyrrizhin in Licorice Root extract, but the flavor or rather smell comes from Anise. The black color is customary too. Without the added color, the candy would be a yucky brown. FYI, the active in anise extract is estragole or 4-allyl anisole and is in the process of being registered as a natural insect repellant or biopesticide for pine beetle. They going to shoot it out in paint balls. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allthumbs Posted September 17, 2003 Share Posted September 17, 2003 catbirdseat said: For some reason licorice candy has always been flavored with Anise extract. The sweetness comes from the glycyrrizhin in Licorice Root extract, but the flavor or rather smell comes from Anise. The black color is customary too. Without the added color, the candy would be a yucky brown. FYI, the active in anise extract is estragole or 4-allyl anisole and is in the process of being registered as a natural insect repellant or biopesticide for pine beetle. They going to shoot it out in paint balls. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted September 17, 2003 Author Share Posted September 17, 2003 more censoriousness "MF" Overhang at Castle Rock. We all know what MF stands for. Same phrase occurs in "It Aint Over Motherfuckers" "Fuckityfuckfuck" a desperate overhanging route in New Zealand was abridged to F***F***F*** in the guidebook. Bc Parks doesn't see any need to censor at Squamish. They post notices saying the Black Dyke and Negro Lesbian are closed to climbing every spring. Then again, we will see what happens at Skaha with regard to "Screw BC Parks": at Little White Wall ? Hey Peter Puget which Smith route originally dissed John Bachar? Is it the one now known as Wedding Day? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catbirdseat Posted September 17, 2003 Share Posted September 17, 2003 I spent two or three years of my life working in the lab with these chemicals. It must have had an effect on my brain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allthumbs Posted September 17, 2003 Share Posted September 17, 2003 catbirdseat said: I spent two or three years of my life working in the lab with these chemicals. It must have had an effect on my brain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter_Puget Posted September 17, 2003 Share Posted September 17, 2003 Without a guidebook I can't remember. I wanna say it was by the Phoenix area but honestly my memory isn't so good. Th eroute is not hard. JBGHSL was how it was shown in Climbing. I guess it's obvious that I think certain names should be censored. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-rock Posted September 17, 2003 Share Posted September 17, 2003 (edited) Hey, where did Jason_Martin go? He was really bright and added a lot to this discussion. His straightforward, call it like it is, no bullshit, non-PC, posts were great! As far as guide books go, it really pisses me off that Adolescent Homosexual was changed to Adolescent Homosapien in the City of Rocks Guidebook. What's so offensive about that? And Kevin McLane is retarded. Dyke is the derogatory name for a Lesbian (as in the Black Dyke and it's neighbor Negro Lesbian). But D I K E is how you spell the word that means: a thin, tabular, vertical to sub-vertical body of intrusive rock. But retarded McLane calls EVERY dike a DYKE in his book. Now that's offensive (not really but it just shows what a shitty guidebook author he is). Edited September 17, 2003 by E-rock Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted September 17, 2003 Author Share Posted September 17, 2003 even worse, he calls sills dykes, when they are nowhere near vertical. THE HORROR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glassgowkiss Posted September 17, 2003 Share Posted September 17, 2003 (edited) I think guidebooks should be like history records. they should inform. everyone should make up their mind, whether they like it or not. this country is so fucked up as far as "morality". so it's ok to show people shot, killed, maimed on tv, but try to sneak a little tit action....catching my drift? i think it's a general problem with media (unfortunate climbing books have to get published), trying to present that life in general is very sterile, safe and clean. diproportion of language spoken on a street corner and one presented by the media is so huge! so changing any names in the guidebooks is just another form of lame internal censorship and caving in to the requrements of publishers. Edited September 17, 2003 by glassgowkiss Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catbirdseat Posted September 17, 2003 Share Posted September 17, 2003 Jim Yoder truncates the lewd names of Vantage climbs, but you can almost always figure out was the full name is. It makes it kind of fun. But I totally agree with Bob on the media. It's so screwed up. What's immoral: showing someone getting shot full of lead or a pair of breasts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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