Matp, Pope I'll start it off!

[mattp]

I agree, Fern has a good idea. Another possibility might be that, for some follow up discussion or for ANY discussion that we might have which threatens to get heated over bolting issues, we might agree that personal attack and the like is not to be allowed and one of these "staunch ethicists" as Figger 8 called them, might volunteer to be a moderator.

[lancegranite]

This stuff is awesome!

 

[DCramer]

LOL well Lance its kinda goofy to me. But since these guys spew with the assertion of authrority I saw someone should call them on their BS.

 

JOn - Open the Rock Police Thread! But lock it so that the discussion stay shere!

[pope]

DCramer said:

Pope what we have is fact going against your constantly shifting argument. Let me be clear you simply make stuff up. There was no admonishment in my first post. You flat out said there was. You say : Implicit in your discussion is the idea that a new free climb with bolts is somehow better than an old aid climb that can be aided on nuts. Again you are making things up. My list made no such argument it was merely a response to one of your exaggerations. You said there are “countless” bolted A2 cracks, yet there are not. Let’s examine your list

 

#10

I say people should go try to lead it before they take your word as to how good the pro is. See my comments above.

 

10 Percent

Hey I did bolt the slab pitch on this. Didn’t place many bolts near a crack. As for the top of the first pitch I did not bolt it. I will leave it to others to decide how good the pro is. I would add again virtually the same comment I made with regard to Dana’s Arch. Someone started chipping the bottom section and I argued against that even stated that I’d remove any bolts placed. I have sent several people including couple who post on the site encouragement to free that part. It will be one of the greatest leads in WA.

 

Wipe

News to me. When it was first climbed the only fixed gear on it was a fixed pin sticking half way out. Are you making this up or is it real? What’s the scoop. Would this really qualify as a C2 crack?

 

Cunning Stunt

Bolts have been removed for quite some time. By the way the guy who bolted it thought I chopped it at first. Would this really qualify as a C2 crack?

 

A belay in the middle of pitch 1 of Japanese Gardens

That actually is a replacement/upgrade from an combination of an old pin and a bolt. Again I had nothing to do with it. I did advice Clint not to show it as a belay anchor but he did and someone upgraded it. An upgrade hardly counts beside the crack is too big for RPS here.

 

Let’s further examine the rock police comment.

 

This is a total crack up. Trask, stay close, you once asked me for my version of the events here it is. A long time ago. I am thinking early 90s (‘92?) the parks department held a series of meeting with climbers. After several meeting were held we took the some officials on a tour of Index. Other climbers on this tour included Access Fund Officials, Greg Child, Steve Swenson, Greg Collum. While walking along the base of the Lower Wall I heard a ‘tick” “tick”. I look up and see some guy aiding a clean (and I think free too) route with a hammer. I let the crowd pass and mentioned to the belayer ( I was sure not confrontational with the parks service guys a just down the wall) that the route was clean! (ie no hammer required) The climber (Dwayner) yelled down and asked what I was saying. Well low and behold he started spew an incredible amount of venom. Not wanting a big scene with the parks dept 30 yards away I beat a retreat. The next week I see our boy pope at the Vertical Club. So I saunter up to him and say “Your friend is an asshole and I bet you are too.” The normally feisty Pope was stammering. He admited that his friend was a bit offbase but justified it by saying he was a famous archaeologist! As if that mattered! He then came back with “he use to work for Jim Donini.” I explained to pope the about the tour. So off I go to Jim who was also in the gym and by merely describing Dwayner’s actions he could name the man!

 

Fast forward to CC.com

Dwayner posts a thread entitled “Rock Police” with a completely fictitious story line purportedly describing the above “confrontation”. It was pulled. I encourage Jon to bring it back to life so that we can see these two in action and after hearing my version of event let the readers decide which is more plausible. Why is that important? Well if I remember correctly Dwayner claims to have chased me out of CC.com and asserts that I won’t be coming back. This is germane to this argument because it shows yet another example of their poor behavior and the end goal of their debating style. After posting my reply to the Rock Police thread I received a PM form Dwayner asking me not to use his name in the thread. His stated clearly that he would say things under the name Dwayner that he wouldn’t say if posting under his real name. Of course now the cover is blown but I do think the PM was informative about the man.

 

At first reading post on cc.com I had no idea ho these two were but while driving a friend of mine said “you do know who pope is”. It turns out pope tells the story that I almost beat him up at the Vertical Club. Let me assure you physical violence was never on my mind.

 

Boy, where do I begin? I never said you bolted all of those cracks. You asked for a list of bolted aid cracks at Index. I produced. I threw in a couple of retro-bolted free climbs that I find offensive as well. I'm not accusing you of being involved in these climbs or supporting their development, I'm just offering examples of what I feel are offensive climbs that really don't fall into the sport-climbing category.

 

"the normally fiesty pope" was stammering in the gym? I suppose I was out of breath (training for my project dude). BTW, I was the guy "aiding with a hammer". The hammer never once came into my grasp but instead hung from my harness throughout the ascent. You heard a tap-tap? Wasn't me. I often carry a hammer while aiding for back cleaning nuts that I've weighted.

 

Back at the gym.....if I brought up the fact that my buddy is a scholar, this was probably in response to your questioning about who he was. You didn't threaten violence against me and I never claimed you did. You're welcome to retract that statement, in fact. What you said to me in the gym is that you came close to punching my buddy, and that I should inform him that you want to talk to him. That is all.

 

Now we've established that a number of bolted free climbs exist at the Lower Wall, and that many of these go on clean aid. And we've established that I'm not saying you're responsible for them. The question is, if everybody is so opposed to bolting cracks....if this should have been obvious to me by now, as MattP says....then where do you stand on the issue, on these routes?

 

 

[daler]

I must be honest a say I did not read every single post in this forum. But I do think something has to be done about the overbolting issue.

I recently moved to boulder colorado but still hold the northwest true to my heart and spend alot of time climbing ther in the summers.

I think the northwesties should take a real look at forming a committee that will oversee new route and retro activity.

Since climbing in Eldorodo canyon I have much respect for such a group. All new routes and retro activity have to go through the ACE committee. It is comprised of 30 year trad climbers, 10 year sport geeks and new sport gym climbers.

New routes are allowed and some old routes are allowed to have bolts added if they truely dangerous. Eldo is a great example because many new routes would go in if a free for all were allowed. But new route activity is slow and careful consideration is used to preserve the rock for posterity.

There are way to many bolts in the northwest and it is only getting worse. Places like leavenworth are so pathetic now that I won't even go there.

 

I love sport climbing and will continue to clip bolts!! But don't overuse them. Routes should be bolted to be led not toproped! A bolt every 4 feet is not Ok. Close to ground Yes but up High one must lead.

 

Get a grip and fix the epidemic!!

 

my 2 cents

 

Dale Remsberg

[lancegranite]

nice..thats it...now,let's all pause,go to the fridge,get a beer and type this out. it seems like a door has been opened...

 

[cracked]

I don't much like Pope and Dwayner due to their pontificating on this board, but reading the rock cop thread makes me wonder. The two versions of the story are so completely different that I don't know who to believe. Due to this fact, I think I will pigeonhole all three of you into my 'terminal arsehole' category until I meet you. Screw this internet ethics bullshit. I climb to get away from rules.

 

And, since people tend to come off much worse on the board than in real life, I still cling to the misguided belief that hopefully someday we can all have a beer (or soda in my case ) and swap climbing stories. More likely, we'll meet at Index, swap insults, and divide the climbing community further.

 

Pope, I'm absolutely floored that you would set foot in a gym. Sounds like a real retro-grouch.

 

Edit: DCramer is no longer pigeonholed into that category.

Edited September 15, 2003 by cracked

[mattp]

If there is to be some effort to put some thoughtful discussion into actual bolting issues, I would suggest that this thread be broken out into a couple of sub-threads. Take the "is there or is there not a problem with bolting cracks" posts, and send them to a new thread. Or Daler's mention that he has in fact seen a successful oversite committee that was set up to manage bolting in Eldorado Canyon -- what a great accomplishment! I'd be interested in talking about why it may have worked there and whether or not this may be something we could try here. But I don't think these discussions start off very well by being mixed up in a thread where we are arguing about whether Pope and Dwayner are devisive, whether Cracked is old enough to participate, whether Mattp is willing to tolerate opposing views, or whether Darryl Cramer saw Pope or Dwayner use a hammer.

[JayB]

I also think that what the committee has achieved in Eldo is impressive and would be worth considering in areas with an established climbing history, such as Index, Leavenworth, and even Vantage. Speaking of Eldo, if I am not mistaken Derek Hersey's "To RP or Not to Be" just saw its second and third free ascents after all of these years. Bolting that particular line would have been unthinkable, but replacing old fixed hardware with reliable modern gear and allowing the development of selected new bolted lines is not. Any management plan that provides for the preservation of rated X death routes, classic gear climbs, and for the development of bolted moderates in the same area, without any impinging upon the other - seems like a model worth considering. Seems like the FCCC is already in place in Vantage and cold possibly be a springboard for such a thing, a partnership or at least a dialogue between local activists and the land managers in the Tieton might not be a bad idea, and I'm sure that some such group would be easy enough to put together for places like Index. If nothing else perhaps groups like the FCCC and the Access fund could draw up proposals for what is and is not acceptable in terms of new route development in each particular area that would set some sort of a standard to guide the practice in each area that takes into account the ethics and idiosyncracies of each place.

 

I don't think the model would work especially well in a new area, in that the pool of climbers with firsthand knowledge of the area would necessarily be limited to a rather small cadre, and secondly I doubt that very many people would be willing to endure both the hard work required to establish new routes and the ordeal of vetting their ideas before a committee.

[Figger_Eight]

mattp said:

If there is to be some effort to put some thoughtful discussion into actual bolting issues, I would suggest that this thread be broken out into a couple of sub-threads. Take the "is there or is there not a problem with bolting cracks" posts, and send them to a new thread. Or Daler's mention that he has in fact seen a successful oversite committee that was set up to manage bolting in Eldorado Canyon -- what a great accomplishment! I'd be interested in talking about why it may have worked there and whether or not this may be something we could try here. But I don't think these discussions start off very well by being mixed up in a thread where we are arguing about whether Pope and Dwayner are devisive, whether Cracked is old enough to participate, whether Mattp is willing to tolerate opposing views, or whether Darryl Cramer saw Pope or Dwayner use a hammer.

 

[ScottP]

A clear definition of what is to be resolved by a serious discussion is in order here. The bolt/antibolt topic is too broad. Perhaps starting with a case in point (the added bolt(s) on 10%?), discussing it reasonably, gaining some sort of consensus and then acting on it in a reasonable fashion.

What is to be accomplished, how it is going to be accomplished, then do it. I agree that Fern's idea about publishing an "opinion paper" first to get the views on the table is a good one.

Moderators can be responsible for doing any weeding.

[DCramer]

Cracked -

I think my replies were kinda low key. I didn't bring the rock cop thing up until pope tried jabbing it at me.

[Cpt.Caveman]

I think the rock cop incident is definitely a factor to discuss, as is the Mattp claim that pope and dwayner are here to sabotage. There's some interesting drama\soap opera. I think it all ties together especially when mattp and darylc are implying outwardly they are the experts in the bolt debate subject and should have the say what is read here - or what is weeded out. That sums up one sided debates where mattp and darylc win win.

 

It's full of it. Get a grip.

 

Bring back the reality.

[Crackbolter]

Bringing it back around again, I see Index as quite a standard in bolting ethics There are a few good points regarding bolting aid lines and how necessary it is to "fix" the route after it has been established as a free climbing route. I believe this is standard procedure.

 

Swept away under the rug are unconventional methods our pioneers used in order to achieve a first ascent in our beloved cascades. Many of these methods will be lost considering many of the routes rarely ever see a repeat let alone "classic" status in a climbing memoir from a local writer. As technologies have changed, so have ascent methods.

 

How many climbers are willing to set fourth the effort to scrub a route for days on end just so their friends can have the fortune of repeating it without all of the dirt? Is cleaning cracks unethical or should it be the amount of traffic that determines "classic" status and routes should naturally exfoliate vegetation and dirt?

 

These are ethics questions that need to be addressed along with bolting. They impact our climbing areas and as a result could change the way some of the route cleaners address the community with ascent information.

 

The result could be that routes will continue to be developed but will be kept to only a select few so criticism will occur long after the route has been established. A result will be areas with routes and no ratings, no names, no F/A history and no guidebooks for climbers to enjoy new areas.

 

Is this what the climbing community wants?

 

I ask everyone to state their own opinion because this question could determine the fate of future ascents.

[DCramer]

pope said:

I'm not accusing you of being involved in these climbs or supporting their development, ..[edit]

 

From an earlier post in this thread:

pope said:While you may be annoyed about the way Dwayner ridicules sport climbers, you must admit that your list of transgressions would exist regardless of Dwayner's electronic opinions.

 

I started this thread with the hope that it would be a good starting place for discussion if not debate. I endeavor to be honest and fair in my comments. I do not think that has been the case for others here on cc.com. There is no reason for these debates to be accusatory and acrimonious. Yet they are. That is the true “nonsense”. Cracked ask yourself why others putting up FAs don’t post here? The answer is simply the BS and outright lies they have to put up with. Look at the goofy “Rock Police” thread. Kind of amazing isn’t it! The last several years cc.com has grown dramatically. Back when the RP thread was posted I told Jon that the site was going to be great in time and encouraged others to post here. I absolutely hate these bolting issues but finally decided I should say something. I start otu with a list of transgressions and end with "hey I wasn't accsuing you.."

 

Let's move on.

 

[mattp]

Cpt.Caveman said:

Bring back the reality.

 

Bring back reality.* I agree. I have ALWAYS said that EVERYBODY has a valid opinion on these matters, whether they have been climbing for 30 days or 30 years. I have NEVER said I have any particular expertise when it comes to ethics. I DO NOT maintain that Pope and Dwayner should not be able to say what they think, but only that they should not be allowed to carry on in a way that appears intended to stop others from doing so. I ENCOURAGE others to express their opinions and to engage in debates on this site.

 

*A famous song by either Snakefinger or the Residents. Good stuff!

[Dru]

Instead of sterile circular argument I propose an active face to face meeting to settle the iussue. Both sides are encouraged to bring their typically used implements. Crack bolters show up with chisels and Hiltis. Super trads bring piton hammers, big balls, crowbars and dirt trowels. Last man standing wins the argument. Capt. Caveman and I will referee.

[Cpt.Caveman]

My opinions below.

 

I started this thread with the hope that it would be a good starting place for discussion if not debate. I endeavor to be honest and fair in my comments. I do not think that has been the case for others here on cc.com. There is no reason for these debates to be accusatory and acrimonious. Yet they are. That is the true “nonsense”.

 

Of course it's not the case. Nobody has to follow a set of rules to discuss what they think, want, prefer, dislike, etc. I think that yes there were some accusatory comments made and they were not nonsense. It just seems that some of the people here don't agree with you sometimes and have obviously made comments you dislike or would rather not be seen here. Perhaps there was an exchange in the past that left others with a sour taste in their mouth. But that doesn't mean that their opions and comments should be cast aside.

 

Cracked ask yourself why others putting up FAs don’t post here?

 

They might be out climbing. Dislike the internet. Or could care less about rock police enforcement. They may or may not seem to feel the need to ask a "climbing community" of communities that can't even agree. Again I get the impression you might have all the answers by reading this discussion. SO then it makes it a discusion of what you are going to do and why. Not really a discussion.

 

I absolutely hate these bolting issues but finally decided I should say something. I start otu with a list of transgressions and end with "hey I wasn't accsuing you.."

 

Bolting debates, discussion, topic and flame wars might be a thing of neverending sparring.

[Cpt.Caveman]

mattp said:

Cpt.Caveman said:

Bring back the reality.

 

Bring back reality.* I agree. I have ALWAYS said that EVERYBODY has a valid opinion on these matters, whether they have been climbing for 30 days or 30 years. I have NEVER said I have any particular expertise when it comes to ethics. I DO NOT maintain that Pope and Dwayner should not be able to say what they think, but only that they should not be allowed to carry on in a way that appears intended to stop others from doing so. I ENCOURAGE others to express their opinions and to engage in debates on this site.

 

*A famous song by either Snakefinger or the Residents. Good stuff!

 

Matt every time they disagree with you you proclaim them saboteurs or something silly. I think you are on the other side of the fence as them and that is all I am pointing out.

 

You do in fact make your comments of sabotage or whatever words you want in order to toss aside any relevence to what they say. And if it's not the desire then it is the perception I get you are moving towards.

[mattp]

Cavey-

You must not be reading very carefully. I have stated, several times in the last two days, that I think Dwayner and Pope have valid points to make. And you know what? I actually agree with some of what they say.

 

Yes, I am attacking them. Personally. I believe they go out of their way to insult people instead of simply saying where they disagree. They haven't answered this, but I'll ask you: do you think that they invite honest or thoughtful debate when they go out of their way to insult people?

[Cpt.Caveman]

do you think that they invite honest or thoughtful debate when they go out of their way to insult people?

 

Yes. Inner debate within the person reading.

Edited September 15, 2003 by Cpt.Caveman

[RuMR]

Caveman,

 

You know sphinxakaTheGuyEveryOneHates? I get the impression that he digs bolts and sportclimbing...yet, you know what, i don't see countless Richard Simmons postings implying that trad climbers are fags or spineless or suck or whatever.

 

Yet this is the precise way that dwayner responds...i believe this is what matt is saying...its inflammatory and INSULTING...

 

What is wrong w/ saying "You know, there was an ethic that caught hold in the 70's...one that espoused not destroying the rock, more using it to protect yourself instead of forcing your passage...one that left no trace that you'd visited...one that had respect for the environment that you were in...one that didn't have the "WHITE LILLY FLOWER GARDENS OF BUOUX" to contend w/..."???

 

The answer: Absolutey nothing is wrong w/ saying that...

 

However if you say that you are a fag or spineless or a coward or whatever...you are insulting the people w/ the counterview...this is what matt and daryl are talking about...

 

Can you not see the difference here? Its like having an argument and someone starts swinging just cuz they don't agree w/ you...its not right and is frankly childish...

 

The other thing is that it is PROVOKING and the discussions will degenrate into well, what you've seen...

[Cpt.Caveman]

RuMR some people deserve comments like those. It might help them think about their actions a little more. It's a harsh world. I am just flipping the coins around looking at things is all. There are even people that need an ass kicking too. But that's not what I am implying here.

 

Climbing is very often an ego driven sport. I have seen dcramer and mattp sometimes make comments here and there elevating themselves or whatever you want to call it. Some might call it elitism but I think it lands on both sides of the fence. The ego thing that that utah dude talks about in the other thread.

 

I believe Flamewars, bolt chopping do in fact help things out sometimes. It's a world of insanity.

 

[Sphinx]

RuMR said:

You know sphinxakaTheGuyEveryOneHates? I get the impression that he digs bolts and sportclimbing...yet, you know what, i don't see countless Richard Simmons postings implying that trad climbers are fags or spineless or suck or whatever.

That can easily be remedied.....

[RuMR]

Yes...a moderator that removes a post willy-nilly can seem to be elitist...the funny thing is i would hardly call Matt or daryl died in the wool sport climbers or elitist...Daryl's done his fair bit of bolt removal and decried chipping very loudly...

 

Daryl has put so much time and energy into index establishing all forms of routes that it seems funny to me that he's been tossed into the lycra sporto camp...in fact its hilarious...the other point is that he expends a great deal of energy FOR OTHER CLIMBERS...ie, anchor replacement or upgrades, trail maintenance, guidebooks, route cleaning and maintenance...Given his level of involvement, he should have some input into index's future, don't you think?

 

You are right though that the type of person drawn to climbing is the type to have large egos, and we are all guilty of that...

 

Having seen entire areas lost to boltwars on the east coast, and the whole ken nichol's retributional chopping crap firsthand in the late 80's, I don't think we want to go down that road in the slightest...