specialed Posted February 6, 2002 Posted February 6, 2002 When I was a relatively new climber we were climbing a "classic" 10a sport route called 11th Commandment in Kootenai Canyon. This dude in my party was leading and was about 40 feet up when he got into a pumpy move he couldn't reverse and yelled "take!" The last bolt was at about shin level. He took a routine fall onto the bolt, which pulled, sending him for another thirty feet or so (with stretch). The next bolt held and he landed on top of his belayer, about 3 or 4 feet from the ground. That's the scariest thing I've ever seen climbing. Quote
allison Posted February 6, 2002 Posted February 6, 2002 Oh, I definitely am not trying to start some sort of one-upsmanship on the "worst bone" issue.....it's just that it has given me waaaaay more long-term suffering than I could have ever imagined. Quote
JayB Posted February 6, 2002 Posted February 6, 2002 Allison: Sorry to hear about your injury - I've sustained knee injuries in two of the past four seasons that have put me out of commission for 3 months at a time. Hell, I tore my left MCL twice in the same season and had to put away the skis for a while and take up snowboarding! ! It truly sucks when an injury keeps you away from the things that you love. I mentioned this in the post on slabs a while back - I run into sport climbs all the time where you'll deck out in a big way if you fall before you make the second clip, and these are hardly r-rated routes. So Allison: Thanks for sharing your story. It brings to light a risk that one commonly encounters on sport-climbs that seems to have gone unacknowledged on this board by some folks who maintain that there's no difference (in terms of risk) between leading a sport route and top-roping it. Quote
chucK Posted February 6, 2002 Posted February 6, 2002 Well if decking was a possibility then it was either not a sport climb or a poorly bolted one. Placing the second bolt too high seems like a far too common an error. It's like the Mountaineers have been out putting up sport climbs or something . How much brains does it take to figure out that if the second bolt is twice as far from the ground as the first, then someone will deck if they blow it near the second clip? Out at Vantage there's a bunch of climbs that have all the upper bolts close enough to Z-clip, while the bottom two are far enough apart to create a decking situation. Dumb. Anyway, sorry to hear about your ankles. Too bad about the doc bungling it too! There's another place (other than sport climbing) where people have too much of a sense of security, the hospital! Quote
Dru Posted February 6, 2002 Posted February 6, 2002 erik knievel, you ever jump the Grand Canyon? allison, i know the route, it is a bit less than vertical, that probably hurt more. the safest falls are off big overhangs where you end up hanging in space far away from walls and ground. given the soft dirt at the base it probably might have been better to hit the ground and your belayer than hit the wall but hindsight is always perfect, right... best not to blame yourself about what you should or shouldnt have done. was belayer using a GriGri or what type belay device? gri gri creates static-er fall and can cause extra force on climber in short hard falls like yours. also on gear which is why theoretically you shouldnt use the m aid climbing...but everybody does cause belaying aid climbing is so boring. [ 02-06-2002: Message edited by: Dru ] Quote
willstrickland Posted February 6, 2002 Posted February 6, 2002 Yeah Allison, my post might have sounded a little crass, and that's not what I intended. I wish you speedy and continued healing, and honestly hope that none of us experience this kind of thing. Quote
allison Posted February 7, 2002 Posted February 7, 2002 quote: It brings to light a risk that one commonly encounters on sport-climbs that seems to have gone unacknowledged on this board by some folks who maintain that there's no difference (in terms of risk) between leading a sport route and top-roping it. Yeah, there's a difference. Esp. if the route is not overhanging! quote: Anyway, sorry to hear about your ankles. Too bad about the doc bungling it too! There's another place (other than sport climbing) where people have too much of a sense of security, the hospital! Here's what sent me back for the third opinion. I couldn't bear weight on either foot. Considering the results WITH a successful surgery, it could have been a lot worse if I'd not gone back in.... quote: Well if decking was a possibility then it was either not a sport climb or a poorly bolted one. I think the bolt placement was pretty close to OK. Maybe #2 could have been a little closer to the ground but in this case the groundfall potential would have been if Suzie had been belaying inattentively....and who hasn't done that in their lives once or twice? quote: was belayer using a GriGri or what type belay device? No, she was using an ATC. I will say that we were all new enough that we didn't have the 'dynamic catch' in our belaying repetoires at that point. I know how to do it now though.... quote: I wish you speedy and continued healing, Thanks a bunch. I don't have everything I had before, and I have to use different gear, but life continues to improve with the funny ankle. I go the greatest compliment a couple of days ago at Mt. Flatchelor....I was zipping down some run making perfect short-radius turns (on the 'cheater' parabolics) and some hottie guy told my buddy that I was a great skier. It made me feel pretty darn swell. Now if I can just get the cut back into my strut in the bumps and the crud, well, that'll all be good!! [ 02-06-2002: Message edited by: allison ] Quote
max Posted February 7, 2002 Posted February 7, 2002 Back to the original topic... It sounds dorky, but I think breathing excercises are a good way to avoid psyching yourself out. Here's the basis of the philosophy: I can think about only one thing at a time. I can perform physical tasks and think about something, but only one thing. As an example, I can walk down the street and think about my stats homework. But I can't simultainiously think about stats and climbing. So if I can replace the thoughts centering around fear with potentially helpful thoughts... better. So when I was climbing at the gym on top rope and working on something super hard, I'd focus on directed, smooth, deep breaths. PLEASE< don't be a huffer at the crags 'cause that drives me (and I'm sure others) nuts. Quite, deep FOCUSED breathing is a great thing to think about while working something hard. And, presupposing you've got the milage as others have recommended, the physical part of climbing will be taken care of by a different part of the brain, like the wlaking part in my example. I've had great sucsess with this technique. At first it doesn't seem to help, but the better you get at FOCUSING on the breathing and redirecting your conscience, the more it helps. I believe the ridiculed euro-chalk-blow is actually another great example of this. Dip a shit-lot of chalk, think about and feel the chalk on your finger tips, visualize the chalk as negative energy (I've picked up this sort of mumbo-jumbo living in Boulder ), then blow it away. Feel clean, stress-free fingers and go. (all you "I hate chalk" types: I don't use chalk and I'm not promoting this as a mind technique. It's only an example of FOCUSING) Thanks for starting this thread 'cause the mind game strategy of climbing is one of the best parts! Quote
freeclimb9 Posted February 7, 2002 Posted February 7, 2002 "Straighten out your bloomers and finish the lead." Quote
johnny Posted February 7, 2002 Author Posted February 7, 2002 OK, I started this thread to get some ideas on how to unf$#ck my mind when above a piece of gear I was not sure of. At first it all sounded good, and I had hope, felt understanding and compassion from the masses. Now all I can see is Alison laying in the dirt with her feet all mangled up with blood and caked dust everywhere. Nice Really Alison, no disrespect, and I wish you all the luck in a solid recovery. And the moral of this story is only climb roofs and overhangs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Quote
nolanr Posted February 7, 2002 Posted February 7, 2002 The most helpful thing for me in getting the right mindset to do lead climbing was solo scrambling on 3rd/4th/low 5th class stuff. I'm in the "don't learn how to fall because falling shouldn't be considered one of your options" camp. Quote
allison Posted February 7, 2002 Posted February 7, 2002 Johnny, don't sweat it. Your visual is all wrong. It looked a lot like sprained ankles until the Xrays. And BTW sorry to mess up your thread with an accident. Probably not the best place to talk about it... Quote
vegetablebelay Posted February 7, 2002 Posted February 7, 2002 quote: Originally posted by allison: Johnny, don't sweat it. Your visual is all wrong. It looked a lot like sprained ankles until the Xrays.And BTW sorry to mess up your thread with an accident. Probably not the best place to talk about it... On the contrary; Johnny has been getting ideas that falling on gear on TR may be a good thing to develop confidence about falling and maybe it's better to know that even falling on good placements may not be ideal. Quote
pope Posted February 7, 2002 Posted February 7, 2002 quote: Originally posted by JayB: Allison:It brings to light a risk that one commonly encounters on sport-climbs that seems to have gone unacknowledged on this board by some folks who maintain that there's no difference (in terms of risk) between leading a sport route and top-roping it. No, in my vast experience, I've never known a climber to get hurt on a sport route, although a close friend once set up an inadequate top-rope anchor and fell 30 feet into the talus, breaking many bones and spilling liters of blood. Worse, they had to cut his harness and rope when they evacuated him. There is a significant difference in the risks associated with sport climbing and top-roping: the latter is more dangerous. I've seen sport routes in which the second bolt is more than double the distance the first bolt is above the ground. Considering the bolts were placed on rappel (the bolting mode in which one may most "thoughtfully" design the fixed protection distribution), I have to agree that somebody out there needs to take a physics class. The solution to this: make sure the first bolt is at least a few body-lengths up. That way, if you miss the second clip, you're less likely to deck. And did anybody mention.....Allison is living testimony to why teaching yourself to not fall is the better approach. Quote
johnny Posted February 7, 2002 Author Posted February 7, 2002 Alison, you didn't mess nuttin' up, I was just being sarcastic, besides, doesn't my visual conjure up more drama?? You guys may be right, it is best not to fall at all but then again, Alison's and others' stories, while quite ugly and very possible, are not really a valid data set. The population is way too small. Statistically speaking, it is still way more dangerous to drive to the crag than it is to climb, whether you practice falling or not. I have found a comprimise of sorts....There is this short (50feet)11.a that is nicely overhanging, devoid of serious projections and protected by a couple of newer bolts as well as a few small gear placements. I've never toproped that grade without resting so my chances of cruising it are not good....Ive struggled up a couple of 11.c-d's here but it definately was not pretty. This ain't exactly a new idea but I guess you could call it my very first project. On another tangent, what is it that makes a 35 year old, brand new stepdad get fixated on things like this? I'vee been monkeying around in mountains all my life and waited till now to advance my technical skills???? Quote
mattp Posted February 7, 2002 Posted February 7, 2002 quote: Originally posted by pope: make sure the first bolt is at least a few body-lengths up. That way, if you miss the second clip, you're less likely to deck. [ 02-07-2002: Message edited by: mattp ] Quote
mattp Posted February 7, 2002 Posted February 7, 2002 Sorry about the blown quotation, and I apologize in advance if this leads to some rediculous digression, but I want to suggest that there should be no "set" formula with regard how far apart the bolts need to be – even for a sport climb. In my view, if there is a hard move ten feet off the ground, the first bolt should not be two body lengths up -- particularly if there is not a flat landing spot below. If a pitch is going to be bolted for sport climbing, what is the point of forcing everyone to run around with a stick clip? So you can have only 11 bolts instead of 12? Sometimes the first bolt should be reachable before you leave the ground (like some climbs from the ledge on WWI at Little Si), and other times two body lengths up as Pope suggested. For the rest of the pitch, the 2nd, 3rd, etc. bolts should be placed at or near the target interval, but more important is to have the hard moves protected and not to have lots of bolts protecting climbing that is much easier than the rest of the pitch - this should take priority over some formula like "first bolt 15 feet up, second one 25." [ 02-07-2002: Message edited by: mattp ] Quote
johnny Posted February 7, 2002 Author Posted February 7, 2002 Interesting, Matt, without saying a word you have sparked another thought..... There is a distinct difference here (NC) than back in Washington. Many routes are rated without taking into consideration the first few feet. At Moore's Wall there is a route named Vascular Disaster (VD for short) It is a solid .11b 1 pitch line with a nastily overhanging 12b boulder problem start (10 feet or so)with the first pro about 30 feet off the deck. In Leavenworth language this line would likely be rated .12+ R/X but aside from mentioning the bouldery start it is simply 11b in the guidbook. There is a .9 sport route in Sauertown that involves a 20 foot 5.8 traverse 15 feet over broken ground to access the first bolt. Its that or pull the evil 12+ overhang in a direct start. The traverse scared me much worse than the big roof 80+ feet over the steeply downsloping deck. Most of the sport routes here are way undrbolted from a Vantage or Exit 38 standard. Interesting... Seems we all have our comfort levels when it comes to runouts/soloing. I'm a wimp, I just bring this up to highlight different ethics and how they manifest themselves Quote
pope Posted February 7, 2002 Posted February 7, 2002 There are many considerations in deciding where to put the first, second and nth bolt. I think stance is important...a good stance below a hard move is where I think that a bolt should go. Two body lengths isn't much more than ten feet in this short guy's estimation, and if you really need the bolts closer than that...maybe it's too hard. As MattP points out, a good bolt shortly above an exposed belay of any kind is important so that a fall directly onto the belay, with very little energy-absorbing rope in the system, does not happen. Same theory when you place gear: don't allow for the possibility of a fall directly onto the belay anchor, when at all possible. One buddy of mine suggests placing a "frank" nut immediately after leading out from the belay....he's never told me who Frank is or why Frank's willing to let us borrow one of his. Quote
Gordonb Posted February 7, 2002 Posted February 7, 2002 What do you guys mean by it is best never to fall? If you always climb with the idea that you can't fall how do you advance and try new skills? I am new to climbing and I expect to be falling a lot while I am working on technique, and I do. I do almost all my climbing on TR right now. If I started out with the idea that I couldn't fall then I would be stuck on 5.7s. I know that many of you would NEVER be seen on a bolted sport climb, so how do you push the limits of your skills? Or are you that are the deriding sport climbers the same ones that are hanging (and I mean hanging) around Vertical World complaining about the route grades? [ 02-07-2002: Message edited by: Gordonb ] Quote
Dru Posted February 7, 2002 Posted February 7, 2002 if you would be confident bouldering it you should just forget the rope and pretend you ARE bouldering. no offense but 10 feet isnt even a highball. if you arent confident bouldering it... another route? the only justification i see for cheater stix is where you start off a ledge and can be looking at a 50 footer (example) from the first moves if you come off more crashpads less cheater stix. back to the topic of mind control, did any one mention smoking a bowl before starting the scary lead? cause "I hear it works" Quote
erik Posted February 7, 2002 Posted February 7, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Gordonb: What do you guys mean by it is best never to fall? If you always climb with the idea that you can't fall how do you advance and try new skills? I am new to climbing and I expect to be falling a lot while I am working on technique, and I do. I do almost all my climbing on TR right now. If I started out with the idea that I couldn't fall then I would be stuck on 5.7s. I know that many of you would NEVER be seen on a bolted sport climb, so how do you push the limits of your skills? Or are you that are the deriding sport climbers the same ones that are hanging (and I mean hanging) around Vertical World complaining about the route grades? [ 02-07-2002: Message edited by: Gordonb ] gordon, it is not tjat we are saying don't fall. it is that we are saying don't accept falling....i mean we waste soo much money on all this gear that we use, that if you have made perfect practice at placing perfect pieces the fear of falling on them is just that a fear and all fears can be overcome, wether it be by many many succesful routes or just simple conditioning of your mind.....i don't like to fall, but i do....up until only recently i was really weirded out about falling then i took a phatty(thank you yellow alien) and after that i had no resvervations about it..... all fear is self created it is preconceived notions in our heads.....mostly what it was for me, was that i over thought the situation trying to factor in all the variables......i was getting into my own head and defeating myself....how can you push yourself when all you can think about is getting hurt???? simplify the route, like drul saud break it down into smaller parts....when i am leading a route i only look at the immediate, where is the next piece what moves does it take to get there.....i do not ask myself wether or not i can make, cause i know i can...even if i am at my limit....visualize success not faliure.... Quote
erik Posted February 7, 2002 Posted February 7, 2002 that or try this website http://www.freedomofmind.com/ Quote
Dru Posted February 7, 2002 Posted February 7, 2002 erik caught up with funnybone for 1000 posts! Quote
willstrickland Posted February 7, 2002 Posted February 7, 2002 quote: Originally posted by johnny: There is a distinct difference here (NC) than back in Washington. Many routes are rated without taking into consideration the first few feet. Oh how I know those. I've been on five or six routes in the SE where the crux was pulling the first three or four moves off the ground and the moves were at least a number grade harder than the rating of the climb. The mentality down there is that the first moves you can practice over and over with no consequences, so they don't really count as part of the route. Just work 'em until you've got the start wired the lead it. There's a easy .10 at Lost Wall where the start involves either doing a campus move off a flaring hand jam to another move off a flaring jam before getting any feet, or stemming between the rock and a tree (the start is radically undercut, so you start grabbing a hold at almost full extension and no feet). The guide mentions nothing about a "tree start" so I didn't stem (although the wear on that tree indicates that most people do) and pulled the move. 10a my ass! The route is called Pipe Full of Fun at Lost Wall if you're in the NW Georgia area (two miles from the recently popularized Rock Town bouldering area on Pigeon Mt). The rest of the climbing is great, probably the best route of the grade at that area with one delicate face move as a crux...and the heinous start. While you're there, take a look just down the face to the left at the route Petrified...a ridiculous 60 degree overhanging start out a roof with a petrified log embedded in the roof, about 15 feet of HARD roof climbing (no jugs on this thing)and then crimpy and technical edging and thin crack climbing on RPs and TCUs with one aid move. I tried to free this thing many times with the intention of eliminating the aid move. Sheeet, I got spanked, and it's still waiting for a FFA. Bring some serious power-endurance, the aid move is right after turning the roof, and you could probably work it ropeless as a highball boulder problem to get it wired. Quote
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