Commercial guiding in the Enchantments and Stuart

[Attitude]

Szyjakowski said:

well said dane

guides lead to more people and more people lead to more problems (period!)

Two groups camp across from each other on a lake in the Enchantments. They point across the lake at each other and say:

 

"This area is too crowded. They shouldn't be here."

[Dru]

feed the growth hormone and roids and they will start predating slow moving hikers thus solving overpopulation of the alpine basin

[Szyjakowski]

S up in the enchantments are already big enuff.

perhaps we could teach them to steal all the campers supplies...oh wait they already do that too...

can you teach S new trix or they like old dogs?

[Dane]

Here is a thought to entertain. How many of you have run across commercial programs in the Leavenworth or Vantage area? (You know, big groups hogging one area) I only climb mid week these days and I have run into what in retrospect is a good number myself...four at least just in the areas close to the road in Leavenworth last summer.

 

Think any of them have use permits from the DNR, USFS to use the public lands? I doubt it having been in that industry for a while.

 

You want to slow down the permit process for guiding in Leavenworth start reporting who and where commercial programs are working now. Ask to see a permit (which will cause the guides, the clients and eventually the company some serious consternation). All kinds of programs out there over using the resources available at your expense while they make money from it.

 

I have poached clients in the Tietons, Rainier, and on McKinley as well as the Stuart Range and the Canadian Rockies. Like Dru I have avoided the permit system in the past and also been escorted by armed USFS staff from the base of SCW

 

Not actions I would suggest repeating but I am not the first or the last. In many ways it is part of the climbing culture to avoid the rules.

 

Doesn't take a rocket scientist to look at any well worn climbing area and see the over use. Commerial programs always generate more use, be it on the river or on the rock.

 

Good commercial programs lower the inpact of their groups and help clients enjoy what is available but at the public expense.

 

 

Edited June 4, 2003 by Dane

[Jason_Martin]

Currently a limited number of guide services do have permits for the area... From the Leavenworth rock area to Stuart and the Enchantments. It is unlikely that this will change.

 

As stated above most people complain about other groups in this region that are not professionally guided groups.

 

And lastly, most guides do not carry a copy of their permit unless it is required within the permit. In this particular area guides usually have to make a commercial reservation with the Forest Service who then knows who is supposed to be in the area.

 

Jason

[Dane]

"Currently a limited number of guide services do have permits for the area... From the Leavenworth rock area to Stuart and the Enchantments. It is unlikely that this will change."

 

It is unlikely to change because it is part of the multiple use deemed appropriate by the USFS which is a good thing for the most part.

 

A limited numer of services may well indeed have permits to work the area. I never suspected any guide or instructor would have a copy of the company permit in their back pocket. How many of you guys working now have actually seen the permits you work under? If you want to find out who actually is working on a permit and who is not their is nothing that says you can't ask as a working guide (not good for your job security if the answer is bad) or as a novice climber using the area.

 

Hell, nothing special about being a guide other than the typical headaches and keeping folks from killing themselves and others.

 

There are any number of very capable programs ran safely and professionally in every aspect but the permit. No one in their right might draws attention to themselves when they are outside the rules. With or without a permit my programs never changed.

 

Never thought anyone guiding currently or the companies that support them would like having to show their permit on demand ( like that is a big deal ) or any of these suggestions.

 

Dane Burns

 

 

 

 

Edited June 4, 2003 by Dane

[erik]

I THINK THEY SHOULD SET UP SPECIAL GUIDE PARKS.

 

PESHASTIN WOULD BE A GOOD PLACE. WHERE YOU CAN CORRAL ALL THE PEOPLE WHO ARE WILLING TO PAY FOR RECREATION AND FOR THE PEOPLE WHO WANT TO WHORE THEMSELVES FOR THE MONEY. THAT WAY THESE PARASITES ON PUBLIC LAND WILL NOT AFFECT THE ENJOYMENT OF THE ACTUAL OWNERS OF THE LAND. THE FREE PEOPLE OF THE UNISTAD STATES OF AMERICA. WILDERNESS AND OTHER WIL LANDS WERE NOT SET ASIDE FOR COMMERCIAL PROFIT, BUT FOR THE ENJOYMENT OF THE AMERICAN PUBLIC.

 

STOP ALL GUIDING!!!!! JUST WATCH TV IT IS JUST AS COOL!

[Szyjakowski]

ERICK are you still drunk or somethin?

KILL your TELEVISION before they KILL YOU.

guiding would never work at PPinnacles for 2 reasons...its sandstone and its eroding

Frenchmanns....now there's a place that needs a guide service...hundreds of routes to pick and choose from and they are all bolted cracks so no worrying about teaching clients how to climb REAL rock climbs.....

BTW- ERIK CALL JAY AND JER!

 

[Dwayner]

Some of you with crappy attitudes about guiding need to gain some perspective. I was a professional guide for a good while including several years with Jim Donini's Leavenworth Alpine Guides. We often operated right out of Leavenworth with permits and we did rock seminars at places like Castle Rock, Icicle Canyon and the Pinnacles and climbed all over the Cascades (except Rainier). The usual guide to client ratio for the beginning stuff seemed to be 1:4 and for the more advance stuff, it was usually smaller, often 2:1 or 1:1. (We also did our snow/ice/glacier stuff on Mt. Baker where there were several other guide services active.) I did a good number of trips up Snow Creek Wall with no more than one or two others. Here's some points to consider:

 

1) From the guide's perspective, the client is paying us to teach them the ropes, so to speak, and to provide them with a safe climbing experience. Although we are using the land, which we are entitled to use, it is our service and expertise that they are buying. It's like you taking your novice buddy up the Tooth, except we're experts in how to deal with novices.

 

2) As guides, we are good stewards of the land, with the goal of neither adding or taking away from the environment, but keeping it nice for ourselves and others. A good guide sees that the clients are well-educated in the needs of the local environment. It's to our advantage not to make a mess or cause controversy, and that goes along with a sincere love for the outdoors environment. We don't leave trash around and will educate and pick up for others when need be.

 

3) Ordinarily it should be difficult to discern a GOOD guided group from an ordinary group of climbers. The client/guide ratios would be small, but you might detect that the group is well-organized, the clients are asking a lot of questions, and the guide might stand out as one who seems to be running the show and is dressed, perhaps, more professionally as a climber. The necessary small numbers, especially on rock, prevent the obnoxious Mountie-like commandeering of whole areas for the purpose of instruction. A good guide shares the rock with others as a positive representative of their profession and company.

 

4)Your chances of being held up for hours on a route such as Outer Space on Snow Creek Wall by a guided party are much smaller than the growing gumby-factor. Most guides won't take people on climbs that are way over their heads. They will lead the climb and provide the confidence and efficiency to bring their people to the top.

 

5)A guide's clients have the same right to be in the mountains as anyone else. I don't know what the permit system is like now, so I can't argue if or how many non-guided people might be locked out of a visit to specific areas due to a quota. Personally, I'd like to see a lot less use permits and restrictions (alhtough I personally have no love for snowmobiles and other noisy machines). If it were a permitless system, the guides would, and should, be role models for low-impact as they should already be.

 

6)By the way, the stuff I said above doesn't necessarily to the situation on Rainier. They got their own little machine going on there with big numbers, etc.

 

- Dwayner

 

P.S. And you can yack about river rafters too. I think those suckers likewise use public land, get permits, etc.

 

 

[matt_warfield]

Dwayner's on the mark. Please distinguish between a single guide with 1-2 clients who want to push their limits

on a classic alpine climb; and a group of beginners trying to learn climbing or summit Rainier or something. Good guides are

fast, safe, and generally excellent stewards of the environment and the climbing experience.

 

However, the general public should not be penalized regarding the number of permits

or how they are distributed.

[Dane]

" Ordinarily it should be difficult to discern a GOOD guided group from an ordinary group of climbers. The client/guide ratios would be small, but you might detect that the group is well-organized, the clients are asking a lot of questions, and the guide might stand out as one who seems to be running the show and is dressed, perhaps, more professionally as a climber. "

 

If it were only true. No disrespect intented to you but that is really pushing it. From the groups I saw just last summer none of the comments are true. More than two people, no one standing out professionally in appearence. The only reason LAG ran small parties is because they only had small bookings before going out of business. Although that was the intended client to guide ratio as I remember, filling classes and trips was the actual reason group sizes stayed small. Adding a guide would have kept the ratio down but not the group size.

 

That would not be the case today for a professionally ran guide service based in Leavenworth.

 

While some deminish the attitude and commercialisn on Rainier it is in fact a successful business. The same problems you see on Rainier, you see on McKinley with the same company. Ever been around Manure Pile when YM was doing a class in the valley? Increase the permits and you'll see more of that rather than less of it in other places.

 

Utopia in the mountains is for everyone to have their own pice of the pie but at some point you have to slow it down and back up a bit.

 

The reality is not guide bashing. I have spent a good deal life making a living from guiding in the mountains and on the river. I no longer do so. But I do see limitations that should be set for better, long term public use.

 

Mountains are not a city street or building. A wheel chair ramp or a guide service isn't needed IMO on every crag and in every corner of the public lands.

 

Being a mtn. guide is an honored profession in Europe or Canada and has been for a century. Guides are looked at in the same manner as a Doctor or any other professional there for good reason.

 

The point of the conversation is not guide bashing. A professional guide is the steward of his sport and environment. But don't close your eyes to the effect of your craft on that environment and the effects of a market driven business on our resourses. In other words it aint about you dude.

 

Dwayner and many of you have been around long enough to see the effects of the climbing population boom. To not acknowledge the effects of over-use and attempt to limit it is unforgivable IMO.

 

Here is a short list of the most popular guided climbs that would see even more use:

Outer Space

Orbit

M.J. Dihedral

Upper N. Ridge of Stuart

West Ridge and S.F. of Prusik

N. face and ridges on Dragontail

Fault, Catapult, Midway, Saber, Canary

Gibler's Dome

 

Weekend the same routes are already over used and I sure don't care to see a guided party on them mid week, no matter how gracious or professional the guide is.

Edited June 4, 2003 by Dane

[Dwayner]

Nice comments, Dane. I never took it personally. But here's a little history. You said:

"The only reason LAG ran small parties is because they only had small bookings before going out of business. Although that was the intended client to guide ratio as I remember, filling classes and trips was the actual reason group sizes stayed small. Adding a guide would have kept the ratio down but not the group size."

 

That's not actually the case. It was a decent business. We were kept quite busy and the guides usually spread out because we realized that small group size was in the best interest of both the clients, ourselves and the areas we worked in. During its heyday in the early 1980's, Leavenworth Alpine Guides not only had numerous independent clients, but we also had the contract for the REI climbing school (which I don't think they offer anymore.) Curiously, the guide service had an unusual string of bad luck. Our office, which was housed upstairs in Der Sportsmann, burned down (as did Der Sportsmann) back around 1982 or 3. We had a lot of our equipment there (and it was first-rate stuff!) but we bounced back. We also lost one of our senior guides, Dave Stutzman in an avalanche (on his own time) in the winter of 1983. The following summer, before the guiding season, we lost the company's manager, Karl Schneider (likewise in an avalanche on his own time). If I recall, without Schneider, who was an excellent climber and businessman, really ran the show, the company lost some managerial steam (I think busy Donini had moved from Leavenworth to Seattle by then) and was sold around 1985. There are only a few of us left, I think. Jeff Splitgerber died paragliding, Bob Nelson died on Mt. Goode? and Katie Kimble got her leg ripped off by a falling rock...although I heard they sewed it back on and she's fine. Alison Osius, Curt Haire, Donini and Dwayner and maybe a couple of others are still around.

 

that's my side of it.

 

- Dwayner

 

[meganerd]

Meganerd- I was there that day sitin at lake vivian...

hows your pops now?

sounded pretty serious at the time.

 

Yeah it was serious. He broke his femur right where it meets his hip, shattered his left shoulder, broke some ribs, punctured a lung, and of course got the general cuts and severe bruises associated with a 40 foot fall, including a big scary one on his head which bled ALOT (but didn't get a bad concussion ) I got a boy scout medal of honor or something for helping to save his life. Hooray for me. Actually on the thing they gave me, it says: "for demonstrating heroism and skill in saving OR ATTEMPTING TO SAVE life at MINIMUM RISK TO SELF." Made me look real good. He was pretty unresponsive and a little delerious until they flew him out (obviously in shock). He spent over two months in a convelescance home (thank god for good insurance) He's fully recovered now, or at least as close as he will come. He can certainly walk and we've done a little hiking together since, but his hip is still weird every now and then and he still can't lift his left arm more than perpandicular to his body. Overall though, the events following that accident accumulated to nothing short of a miricle and reaffirmed my then-feeble faith in god, or whatever benevolent being you want to refer to.

[Dane]

"If I recall, without Schneider, who was an excellent climber and businessman, really ran the show..... Katie Kimble got her leg ripped off by a falling rock.

 

Between Karl's death and Katie's injury, Katie had bought LAG from Karl's wife IIRC. Karl had bought Donini out just prior to his death in SA. By every account it was the loss of Karl that ended LAGs. I think Katie was ready to move on by my memories of the time. Everyone else was already gone in one way or another after Karl's death is how it seemed to me. I had been working in Canada and Alaska earlier and was hired by Karl just before his fatal trip. My involvement was short lived working for Katie and watching the business die.

 

But my point was the climbing community was much smaller then. Easier to do quality trips and not over run the area. It would be much harder now not to accomodate the increased clientele and not overwhelm the area, especially the Enchantments and the better routes that we both loved to work on. Keeping a handle on all of that and running a successful business would take some amazing managment skills IMO from the concessions and the USFS. I wouldn't trust either to have those skills today.

 

Climbers and times change. I wouldn't want to see more commercial use of the the Leavenworth/Enchanment/ Stuart area and better management of the use that has been granted. Just my 2 cents worth.

 

[scot'teryx]

I'm guiding a group up to Eight Mile Lake this weekend. We might rope up

I think I might try and get them to go on the 4th of July Trail as well. They are paying some good money and we will bivouac by the sun godz loungin area up there. Pretty cool eh? Where am I

 

Why did I go to X38 tonight? I'll never learn

[allthumbs]

scot'teryx said:

I'm guiding a group up to Eight Mile Lake this weekend. We might rope up

I think I might try and get them to go on the 4th of July Trail as well. They are paying some good money and we will bivouac by the sun godz loungin area up there. Pretty cool eh? Where am I

 

Why did I go to X38 tonight? I'll never learn

don't forget the ice chest and portable tv

[catbirdseat]

I heard a good story the other day. The story teller and her boyfriend were camping 5 miles up the 4th of July Creek trail on a blistering hot day. Two flushed and exhausted hikers came up to them and asked, "where is the drinking fountain"? They had nothing but the clothes on their backs, no water, nothing. My friends gave them some water and sent them back down the trail.

[Cpt.Caveman]

erik said:

i hope it doesnt

 

guiding is an abuse of public land.

 

guides are making profit off of public land, we the people should be compensated for it.

 

NO GUIDING IN WASHINGTON STATE!!!!!!!!!!

 

i am calling my congress people.

 

fuck the forest service!!!!!!!

 

 

What a jackass. Guiding is ok, and I bet some of your friends guide in the most crowded national park.

 

I think your anger towards guides and guiding is twisted and misplaced.

 

Contact your congressional representative all you want. I'm sure they have better worries than to listen to someone that has not gathered any facts numbers or offer any proof other than scorn for guides and everything they represent.

 

Peronally I think guiding is fine. It could keep some people from doing things they shouldn't. Or maybe not Either way guiding is not going away. Quit your whining.

 

 

[erik]

 

[Dwayner]

Dane wrote:

"Between Karl's death and Katie's injury, Katie had bought LAG from Karl's wife IIRC. Karl had bought Donini out just prior to his death in SA. By every account it was the loss of Karl that ended LAGs. I think Katie was ready to move on by my memories of the time. Everyone else was already gone in one way or another after Karl's death is how it seemed to me. I had been working in Canada and Alaska earlier and was hired by Karl just before his fatal trip. My involvement was short lived working for Katie and watching the business die."

 

Good recollections of interesting times, Dane. Karl Schneider died in 1984 just before the guiding season (which again included many REI clients) and that summer, the company seemed a bit rudderless and was really slipping without him. Donini was still around, maybe as a figure head, because I remember soliciting his permission for this or that. I wasn't involved in Katie's manifestation of LAG the next year but recall talking to Scott Fischer about working for Mountain Madness as a rock guide in 1985. I ended up instead in Israel for the next couple of summers. I heard that maybe Katie in turn sold LAG to somebody in Oregon? I really didn't have much to do with them after 1984.

Those were interesting times and I agree with you that there were fewer climbers back then and a lot less competition for space.

 

I think I met you a few times. Wasn't there a picture of you on the Eiger North Face hanging in the old Gustav's?

(the old one before it burned down.) Now that was an interesting place! Some groovy vegetarian hippies had been running it at one time and named all their menu items after Leavenworth rock climbs. And there were cool climbing photos on the walls. And a nice fenced in beer garden on street level. Back in the day, me and a guy name Mike Adams spent part of a summer living under the Rat Creek Boulder. We found a lot of dropped gear and such and took it in to town to the owner of Gustav's. He gave us $5 and some burritos for the gear and we used the money to buy a #10 can of pork and beans which we kept out at the boulder and reheated as necessary. It took us several days to eat that big can even after it filled with rain water one day and one night we woke up to see a deer having a taste.

dem's wuz da daze!

 

- Dwayner

 

[daler]

In response to the list of climbs you list a popular guided climbs.

Most of the climbs you listed are off limits to comercial guiding. I think only the climbs on Castle, givlers and maybe dragontail are OK. And I'm fairly certain only 1 or 2 companies can guide the N. ridge of Stuart.

And as far as impact goes I think most profesional guides do a better job than the general public. I spend much of my time while working trying to educate the public on how to take care of the wilderness.

 

dale

[dave]

I can't believe I actually agree with the Caveman! Guided parties, like any parties, can be good parties or bads parties. I believe that Prusik, and the Enchantment basin proper, is off limits to commercial guiding but the rest of the stuff aforementioned is not. Ciao---Dave