fern Posted June 6, 2003 Posted June 6, 2003 I don't have the magazine here right now to check the gist of the interview was that he does a lot of free soloing (this issue's 'theme') in the high grades and has also (rap?)bolted routes to a R/X standard. Quote
JayB Posted June 6, 2003 Posted June 6, 2003 chucK said: JayB said: I think that I am pretty much with you on this one Matt - what I am talking about not so much the placement of individual bolts as it rap-bolting an R/X line with serious groundfall potential for no other reason than stroking one's own ego. Not a very common phenomenon, and when it does occur it is rarely, if ever done at a popular crag with a sport ethic. Do you have examples of where this was ever done, or is this just a straw man? C'est un homme de straw. Rhetorical device. Canard. Though someone can surely find an example, I am sure. More common (I think) is someone doing a crap/dangerous bolting job (groundfall potential while clipping the third bolt, etc) and getting upset when someone rebolts it. I am not against dangerous routes in principle - they have their place - I just don't think that they belong in popular, easily acessible areas that have been developed with a different ethic. I have no more problem with someone rebolting a dangerously bolted route in an area like this than I do with someone chopping an overbolted route in an area know for lots of commitment and long run-outs. Quote
mattp Posted June 6, 2003 Posted June 6, 2003 JayB said: I am not against dangerous routes in principle - they have their place - I just don't think that they belong in popular, easily acessible areas that have been developed with a different ethic. I have no more problem with someone rebolting a dangerously bolted route in an area like this than I do with someone chopping an overbolted route in an area know for lots of commitment and long run-outs. I'm sort of with you, there JayB. As I said before, I think it is irresponsible to deliberately set dangerous routes but if someone were to go to, say, exit 38 and set a route where there were 4 or 5 bolts in 80 feet rather than the usual 10 or 12, it might be OK provided that one could clearly see this from the ground and could therefore make their own decision as to whether they were up for it. Better might be to bolt it so that it had bolts closely spaced at the start and they got wider toward the top so that if one fell off they might take a big whipper and not hit anything. This would probably take a few more bolts. The potential value I see in this might lie in demonstrating that there are other alternatives besides body-length bolt spacing and it might provide an exciting experience for some climbers. Conversely, I am NOT suggesting this AT ALL but if there were one climb at Static Point with close bolt spacing, well away from the main ledge somewhere, it might be acceptable even there. It might allow somebody new to slab climbing an opportunity to find out that those sticky shoes actually do stick. Quote
gearbot Posted June 6, 2003 Posted June 6, 2003 As far as I am concerned, add as many bolts as you think necessary to make the climb safe. If the first person who climbs a route solos it, does that mean no bolts can ever be place on the route? Quote
Szyjakowski Posted June 6, 2003 Posted June 6, 2003 gearbot said: As far as I am concerned, add as many bolts as you think necessary to make the climb safe. If the first person who climbs a route solos it, does that mean no bolts can ever be place on the route? but of course! Quote
EWolfe Posted June 6, 2003 Posted June 6, 2003 I wonder what happened to that removeable bolt cam phenom - it sure doesn't seem to have become popularly used. It seems like that may have been a possibility to bypass the whole bolt/not bolt issue... Not that a wall with a bunch of 3/8" holes is any better, but visually it seems like it would be less impactful, and routefinding becomes more than looking for the next shiny piece of metal... Quote
erik Posted June 6, 2003 Posted June 6, 2003 the icicle. that place has tons of bolted cracks. usally they are wide ones, but some or horizontal placements and some are just bolted gear placements. Quote
chirp Posted June 6, 2003 Posted June 6, 2003 My 2c, Slabs are meant to be runout. Static point, GPA, J-Tree, et al have a rich history of low angled route that inspire perspire. Learning how to fall and wearing the proper non-lycra/shorts attire helps. I respect the first ascentionist choice and if i havent the nads to lead it, ill walk away or if I want it bad enough, find a way to TR it. It totally adds flavor to a route and a locale. What gets me is the genericification and stupification of climbing that the sport climbing realm has wrought upon the face of the sport. Kudos to those who fight the trend Anyway...replace the baddies but dont add more. Quote
Paco Posted June 6, 2003 Posted June 6, 2003 gearbot said: As far as I am concerned, add as many bolts as you think necessary to make the climb safe. If the first person who climbs a route solos it, does that mean no bolts can ever be place on the route? But determining what is "safe" is somewhat debatable. What one person condiders safe might not be so to another. If you are three pitches up a route and the next pitch only has two bolts with no trad pro a fall would be long, but if you don't deck then some would consider the route safe, while others would argue that it is not safe due to long runouts. What about multi pitch routes where the crux goes at say 5.11. If this pitch has bolts every 8 feet, should a 5.8 pitch below have bolts every 8 ft? No, if you are going to do the 5.11, then running it out on 5.8 shouldn't be a problem. And I would argue against over bolting the 5.8 pitch just so someone who's leading limit is 5.8 will feel safe leading that particular pitch. Quote
Szyjakowski Posted June 6, 2003 Posted June 6, 2003 erik said: the icicle. that place has tons of bolted cracks. usally they are wide ones, but some or horizontal placements and some are just bolted gear placements. careful, most of the bolted cracks are not vertical cracks but horizontal cracks that occur in succession.... Quote
spew Posted June 6, 2003 Posted June 6, 2003 Szyjakowski said: man, there is so much stone out there... expand your horizons and go find your own lines... style is what climbing is about. if you don't like a FA's style go climb another route. why does humans always have to change their environment to suit their own fears. get a grip and go climb a rock. sheesh. well said replaceing bad bolts is ok If you don't like runouts put up your own routes. Quote
richard_noggin Posted June 6, 2003 Posted June 6, 2003 erik said: the icicle. that place has tons of bolted cracks. usally they are wide ones, but some or horizontal placements and some are just bolted gear placements. Bold statement from a top roper! Quote
mattp Posted June 6, 2003 Posted June 6, 2003 MisterE said: I wonder what happened to that removeable bolt cam phenom - it sure doesn't seem to have become popularly used. It seems like that may have been a possibility to bypass the whole bolt/not bolt issue... It was an idea that had promise, but I think that in reality it turned out to be mostly impractical. I have drilled holes and then gone back a couple months later to install a bolt in them and had a very difficult time finding the hole -- even when I stood on exactly the same footholds that I used when I drilled the hole! It might not happen on overhanging rock, but otherwise an empty hole can fill with debris and disappear very quickly unless the outside edges of the hole were chipped to make a larger scar. In overhanging rock, most of us would be a little leary of the expanding/removable anchors. Quote
chirp Posted June 6, 2003 Posted June 6, 2003 mattp said: MisterE said: I wonder what happened to that removeable bolt cam phenom - it sure doesn't seem to have become popularly used. It seems like that may have been a possibility to bypass the whole bolt/not bolt issue... It was an idea that had promise, but I think that in reality it turned out to be mostly impractical. I have drilled holes and then gone back a couple months later to install a bolt in them and had a very difficult time finding the hole -- even when I stood on exactly the same footholds that I used when I drilled the hole! It might not happen on overhanging rock, but otherwise an empty hole can fill with debris and disappear very quickly unless the outside edges of the hole were chipped to make a larger scar. In overhanging rock, most of us would be a little leary of the expanding/removable anchors. You could.. like.. make little plugs with a puppet head of your favorite muppet or rock star and put them in the hole to keep the hole clean and ease visibility? PC-7 a little keeper wire to the rock to keep the plug from falling away? Quote
ScottP Posted June 6, 2003 Posted June 6, 2003 (edited) (note to self: read before you post) Edited June 6, 2003 by ScottP Quote
Peter_Puget Posted June 7, 2003 Posted June 7, 2003 Just a little reality as far as falling and safety: virtually any fall is potentially fatal. People have fallen and died in their bathroom or their front steps. I would rather risk a slip in the shower than take the long whipper on the 5.8 pitch on Online. I have taken long falls a couple near 50'and been fine. Took one about 10' and broke my arm. A friend took a 15'fall on Wide County and went directly to ICU and surgery. Another friend fell less than 10'at Index and broke his leg. Another broke her ankle falling 15'at Smith. The list can go on and on. PP Quote
chirp Posted June 7, 2003 Posted June 7, 2003 Ant fall can dole out some serious damage. I had a similar exp where a friend slipped one foot, it caught on a rugosity and ripped up his peronials (trashed ankle). Its the small stupid stuff that gets ya. Quote
chucK Posted June 7, 2003 Posted June 7, 2003 Yeah man. I tell ya. I almost freakin died at index the other day. Almost freakin died. Quote
chucK Posted June 7, 2003 Posted June 7, 2003 I almost fell dude! Actually, now that I think about it... I almost fell a couple of times and I actually did fall about 3 times. Quote
gearbot Posted June 7, 2003 Posted June 7, 2003 I see the benefits of keeping a climb in the same state of as the first ascension. Other parties wanting to push the cutting edge of climbing need to repeat climbs in the same way as the original ascension. But, the first climbing party does not own the climb. As time progresses, so does the state of the art of climbing; for example in the 70’s the best climbers in the world were focused on slab climbing, now slabs are not cutting edge. At some point climbing areas need to be made more available to the general climbing community which are not willing to take as many risks as the original ascensionists. Quote
Bill_Simpkins Posted June 8, 2003 Posted June 8, 2003 I think runouts are ok. If you don't want to climb them, you don't have to. Climb something else. No one if forcing you. Plus, even on the runout routes, the bolts are usually at the cruxes. The runouts keep the hordes away. I guess you could always make a 30 ft. stick clip. Quote
JayB Posted June 9, 2003 Posted June 9, 2003 Speaking of Static Point and Bolts.... Gaston_Lagoffe and I were planning to upgrade some of the hardware out there this weekend, but we didn't pull all of the gear together in time so we just went climbing there instead to do some "Research." Anyone looking for a project should look no further than Offline, as most of the bolts below the 9+ pitch that parallels Online's crux are rusty, 1/4" buttonheads. Anyhow - it was a beautiful day up there And we ran into Smoker and Co. at the crux pitch of Online.. Making us look like a couple of pansies in our double Carhartt's while they climbed in shorts.... Great routes, great day, great setting... Quote
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