to crowd or not to crowd

[epb]

I do a decent amount of soloing, both rock and ice. Mostly long classics that I have done a good amount of times before. However, since most routes I solo are classics there are usually hoards of people and rope teams on them. On rock it's usually not a problem passing groups, and no one seems to care about my presence on the wall. However, on alpine/ice routes it seems to be a bit different. Last year I was soloing the pinnacle gulley in huntington ravine on Mt. Washington. Half way up I came across a group of three climbers. Had I seen them on the route before I started climbing I probally would have chosing a different route, but I didn't see them. They made quite a fuss when I wanted to pass them. They claimed I was a hazard to them. Regardless, I passed them anyways. They were pissed, seriously pissed....we got in a pretty good sized confrontation down at the base of the ravine later on. It wasn't cool. So is this different than any rope team following or passing another team? Thinking back though...I can't remember ever passing any teams or being on the same route as any rope teams while I was roped up before, at least on such a confined route like those at Huntingtons Ravine. So what's up here? Is climbing up on a team in an alpine setting crazy wrong or what? (BTW avalanche conditions were extremely low that day).

[ 12-07-2001: Message edited by: epb ]

[To_The_Top]

epb,

I don't know the climb on Washington, and what the hazards were, other than avalanches, or rockfall. Mt Wa. is a big magnet for the masses, and when there are several people on a route, someone is going to get passed. Putting aside any danger, maybe they got pissed about the fact that they got passed. I have had people get pretty mad about this.

I have run into this on solo climbs and roped climbs here in Wa. (state). Lately, if I am in this situation I will try to hold back and pass them when they are taking a break, or strike up a annoying conversation with the person in the back, then pass. I have also been passed on climbs here, and I think that most people just let a group pass, no remarks.

This is of course, on routes that are not too technical. I will even go around a crevasse a different way, and maybe get a reply saying I went off trail. Oh well the Mountain police are everywhere.

[epb]

It does have to be kind of embarassing when you have enough gear around your shoulder to climb el cap, and a kid flys past you and your buddies with nothing but a pair of running shoes clipped to his drawers.

I'm not a big fan of corwding anyone in teh backcoutry though, where there is the possiblity of avalaches or ice falls. Hell I didn't want to be climbing under those idiots as much as they didn't want to be climbing under me. It just happened. I was just wondering if there is some ethics I should be following, cause I'm going back this winter and don't want to step on anyone's shit as I weave my way up and down the ravine.

[plexus]

epb,

had similar problems on rock a couple of years ago. I was soloing a climb and a Mountaineer "teacher" got all up in face afterwards. Thing was, there was nobody on the route, there was none of their gear on the route, but since they were in the area, I was a risk. Plus I was sending a bad message to people learning how to climb.

Closest I ever came to going Kung-Fu grip on anybody while in the wild (OK, I one time grabbed a tourist's cell phone while he was yakking away to some friends and tossed it off a cliff).

I would think that a solo person would create less of a danger than a team for rockfall and such. It is the perception of going solo, you are a risk-taker, you must be dangerous and careless. All the times climbing, I've never had a problem with a person going solo but have had difficulties with parties.

I could see some problems if the section of gulley you passed the party at is known to be a terrain trap or if the avy conditions were high.

Just my feelings.

[To_The_Top]

epb,

Ya, I've seen those guys out leading the big climb, with all the stuff hanging from their harness, having their say. It depends around here, if it is safe to pass or if it creates a hazard. I would pass someone without a doubt on Mt Baker Colman-Deming or Hood on the South side, but would hang back on say Liberty Ridge on Rainier or the North Ridge on Baker, unless I took a totally different line, or passed them at a break. If it doesn't create a hazard, then they are getting pissed because they have the 10 essentials and then some, and you are racing by in a t-shirt and running shoes with instep crampons. I just laugh it off, but then again they usually don't catch me in the parking lot later. It isn't totally about the solitude here, unless you are on a route that is very remote.

B

[epb]

BTW I did pass when they were breaking, or when all of them were at one belay that is. In a gulley like pinacle it isn't that safe to have people climbing above you, I agree. However we were all stuck up there (my fault I guess, cause I didn't see them on the climb before I started), but I sure as hell didn't want to be climbing under these 3 yahoos. Fuck em. Whatever.

>>but would hang back on say Liberty Ridge on Rainier or the North Ridge on Baker, unless I took a totally different line, or passed them at a break<<

Even if you pass them at a break...isn't the hazard though just being above them? I guess that is what I'm trying to get at, since I did pass them accordingly. However they seemed to be pissed at me just climbing above them.

[ 12-07-2001: Message edited by: epb ]

[To_The_Top]

Like Plexus said better than I, someone soloing is less a problem as far as dropping crap down on you, verses a TEAM that drops wayyy more. I think that those guys were outta line based upon your side of the story. I can't imagine that they didn't let you pass at the break, I don't understand why they would get upset, but then again I haven't been on the route.

As far as the previously mentioned climbs, I was just saying that it is a hazard at certain points, not on the whole climb.

B

[epb]

Yeah I guess it all depends on the climb. I admit it though...I'm a hazard

Oh well. Next topic.

[allthumbs]

Last I heard we weren't paying any fee to climb the local routes. Where do these hemroids get off thinking they call the shots up there? It's a free flippin' world. If I'm being held up and can pass safely and climb ahead without endangering anyone below me, I'm gone. Adios, kiss my tight ass sucka. See ya at the bar for a smoothie.

[epb]

Yeah I hear ya trask...however you forgot to add one of these to your last post

[ 12-07-2001: Message edited by: epb ]

[plexus]

Hey isn't it supposed to be a new sometime next week?

[plexus]

Hey epb...

Have ya done anything in the Cheam Range? Is the rock as crappy as they say?

[epb]

The Cheam Range in BC? Naah I've only been to BC once and that was on a ski holiday to Whistler.

[freak]

I had a mountaineer get buck with me once on my favorite cruisen around solo circuit. SOmething about being crazy and setting a bad example and if I fall im gonna ruin his day. oh well, just cruise on past and if you have to yell, say, DOntTOUCH ME. and just keep on cruisin

[allthumbs]

I'm figurin' that once I'm able to walk on water, I'll be in a better position to criticize and postulate. Know what I mean? Until then, I just "SPRAY BABY SPRAY" Kiss my

[pope]

I was once soloing at Castle Rock when an esteemed Leavenworth-area climber, a guy I really respect, yelled at me for soloing above where he and his partner were climbing, suggesting that if I were to fall off, I'd wipe them out too. I was a little irritated, but he was right. I think it's smart too choose a vacant climb when you solo, although on a long route, you sometimes can't tell from the base whether or not the route is empty.

[ 12-08-2001: Message edited by: pope ]

[allthumbs]

quote:

---

Originally posted by pope:

I was once soloing at Castle Rock when an esteemed Leavenworth-area climber, a guy I really respect, yelled at me for soloing above where he and his partner were climbing, suggesting that if I were to fall off, I'd wipe them out too. I was a little irritated, by he was right. I think it's smart too choose a vacant climb when you solo, although on a long route, you sometimes can't tell from the base whether or not the route is empty.

---

How right you are Pope.

[Jens]

Lots of folks will read the above posts and then think they have a right to get bent out of shape when they get passed by a soloist.

There are no rules to passing whether solo or as a team. You just try to be polite.

Many of the attitudes people have about having a right to a routeor waterfall is due to the fact that we Americans are as a whole pretty slow climbers.

I had a French dude and his partner clip my belay and simul past me at breakneck speed . I didn't get pissed.

[Lambone]

I was leading a pitch on the classic Nutcracker in Yosem. when some Austrian dude climbed around my belayer and started clipping into my pieces with his draws. Then he climbed right around me...I was dumbfounded, speechless, and super pissed about it. Sure I was kinda slow cause it was one of my first multi-pitch routes, but COME ON!!!

I had every right to be pissed, the dude didn't even ask first...at the time I was young and unaware of European tactics. That kind of behavior may be the norm in Europe, but this is our home turf, and they should play by our rules. At the least be curtious enough to ask first. This experience left a very bad taste in my mouth towards foriegn climbers.

I would also feel uncomfortable with a soloist climbing directly above me. They are are not only risking their lives, but mine too. It's just like the whole smoker issue...

People have the right to be concerned about their saftey and well being, and reserve the right to be pissed if some one is endangering it. That kind of behavior is both selfish, and inconsiderate towards your fellow climbers. It doesn't matter how good you think you are...it's about respect. If you are a stranger soloing above me, I have absolutly no confidence in your skills, why should I...not just 'cause you are ballsy enough to climb without a rope.

Then again, being friendly first goes a long way!

[ 12-08-2001: Message edited by: Lambone ]

[epb]

Lambone did you just sit there silent with your arms folded as that dude clipped to your pieces and passed you or what? I could give a shit if I team passed me, but if the fucker started pushing his way past and clipping into my gear without asking he would be taking a long fall very quickly. That attitude shouldn't be allowed to fly on a wall.

BTW pope I agree with you about climbing with respect to your family. I think it is uncool to be putting yourself out on the edge when you have the responsibilities of a family.

[Lambone]

What could I do, call the Rock Cops?! Trust me I wanted to push him off, but he would have been falling onto my gear that I was also clipped to!!!!

Mostly I was just gripped on a Yosemite 5.8 crack, and I didn't know what to think...it was my first route in Yosemite and I was totaly awstruck by the glory of the valley. The dude cruzed out on the face about ten feet left of me, just smiled and went right on by whisteling the Austrian National Anthem or something.

The weird part was when I met up with him at the belay... He didn't speak english so I just scoweled at him. Everything he did from his anchor set up to his belay tecniques were totaly foriegn to me. He was more than twice my age and his equipment looked abut 4 times as old as mine. So no, I didn't say much about it. Hell, I was only fifteen, I was also dieing of thirst and he gave me some candy so I just let it go...

That is just one story, one time a group of 5 Koreans thought they would join us for the night on Camp 6(room for 3) on the Nose. HAHAHAHA.... They even had portaledges, but just wanted to be on our ledge...they ended up giving us lots of smokes, so it was all good.

Or there's that time that the Germans above us left a bag of shit tied to the belay...

And that one time when the Spanish team stole our fuel and food out of Camp 1...

The list goes on... American climbers may be slow, but I have never run into any that are rude vile theives.

Am I a little bitter...what, does it show?

[ 12-08-2001: Message edited by: Lambone ]

[To_The_Top]

If you don't like crowds or other people (teams) on the route or don't have the "ten essentials" haha don't be on the north face of Chair dec 15 or in Leuthold Couloir on feb 23-24th. I don't like it when clubs think they own the whole mountian, and from past experiences they drop a lot of stuff.

[epb]

You and 5 lonely Koreans on a bivy meant for 3??? Hmmm...I didn't know you were into kinky shit Lambone.

[pope]

Here's a little story I tell the punks in my class when I give a little mountaineering slide show. They seem to think it's really cute:

Back in the days of the brown-bag-turd-disposal system, I was sitting on Sickle Ledge with a buddy one morning. We were sort of waiting in line to really get going on the Nose. Ahead of us, a party of three foreigners were modeling perfect team work, having divided the labor for every big-wall task into components that seemed preassigned. They weren't fast..in fact, we were sitting on the ledge waiting to see whether they were going to retreat after they spent the night standing in aiders in the stove legs. We had watched them the previous day and noticed that they weren't throwing off any little brown lunch sacks. Well, that morning when I woke on sickle ledge, I was startled to see what appeared to be a basketball-size rock coming at me...no wait, it was tumbling far too slowly to be a rock..suddenly, I realized that these guys had been shitting in the same large, brown paper grocery sack, and that they had launched it our way just in time for breakfast! Anyway, it missed. I just thought that was an example of taking team-work too far!

[Lambone]

Hahaha...

This is getting a bit off epbs original topic, but if you like boring El Cap stories by all means read on. Take note- I meen no offense towards Koreans, any other nationality or ethnic group for that matter...

The whole scene involving the team behind us was unlike anything I had ever seen before in climbing. Like pope explained above these guys had a very structured team system. Each member had a specific job, and it was quite the corporate hierarchy.

One guy (the ropegun) led every pitch, one guy (the bitch) hauled every pitch, one guy cleaned every pitch, and the oldest (the boss) barked orders at every one else. I never figured out exactly what the fifth guy did, maybe he was in charge of packing all their crap up, and they had about six haulbags worth of crap! I've allway thought that it seemed to be an interesting technique for getting a large team up a wall. From our point of view it was pretty entertaining!

Of course, there was no way we were going to let them pass us, but every morning they would get up at about 5:00 and start getting ready. They'd yell up to wake us up and get moving. We call down profanities and around 8:00 or so we'd crawl out of or bags whip it out and give them a pissing contest!

Regardless of our differences, we were all pretty damn happy to be up there together. Until they showed up at Camp 6...

[ 12-08-2001: Message edited by: Lambone ]