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Posted

Fleblebleb, You told me how you think I'm being condescending, so now offer me a factual argument for how this war is about oil. That is if you have one?

Posted

No you didn't ask me, but oil is A reason, although not THE reason for the war. The other unstated reasons, besides the security argument, is the need for a military base other than Saudi Arabia. We'd love to get the hell out of there so as to remove the main motivation of muslims to hate us. Now, if we would just stop showing bias in favor of Isreal agains the Palastinians, we'd be able to remove another reason for them hating us.

Posted

But HOW is oil a reason behind the war? What circumstances lead you to believe we are going after Iraq's oil? Was it the statement by the US that all riches seized in this conflict will be returned to the Iraqi people? I could see how that could be confusing .. how about the fact that we didn't take their oil in the 1991 Gulf War? Yeah, all signs point to oil.

Posted
catbirdseat said:

No you didn't ask me, but oil is A reason, although not THE reason for the war. The other unstated reasons, besides the security argument, is the need for a military base other than Saudi Arabia. We'd love to get the hell out of there so as to remove the main motivation of muslims to hate us. Now, if we would just stop showing bias in favor of Isreal agains the Palastinians, we'd be able to remove another reason for them hating us.

Plus, the administration just got shut down on further Alaska oil (it seems Prudhoe is running dry), so that CAN"T help...

Posted

Do you really think we'd invade a country and alienate ourselves from Russia, Germany, and France because we need a base in Iraq? Come on! We have bases in Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, and Israel .. why would we need a base in Iraq? How would that help us?

Posted
tomcat said:

That's the fallacy .. just because you're a UW student, that doesn't make you educated. You can fake your way through an education -- no problem. Most of the war protesters are college students .. this doesn't make them smart. If they actually had some intelligent arguments for their cause, I'd listen to them. But they don't.

 

Actually, being a college student does make you educated. That's the whole point. However, you can dispute the quality of the education, and students may not all be well informed, but hey - that's splitting hairs isn't it?

 

tomcat said:

To answer your question, I've met several people who disgree with the war that are educated .. educated NOT because they agree with me (because they don't), but educated because they take the time to figure things out on their own .. and not take someone else's word for it. Had you read my prior posts in this thread, you'd understand that that's how I see it.

 

Nope, that was not the understanding that reading your prior posts led me to.

 

tomcat said:

It is not impossible to be informed and at the same time disgree with the war. But come with some factual arguments against the war then, don't keep shoving these ignorant arguments in my face and tell me they're fact .. just because your buddy said it's a fact doesn't make it so.

 

Tom, I have made no arguments concerning the war. I just found fault with your one-sided dismissal of other people's arguments.

 

tomcat said:

Now, let's hear your rebuttals to my argument. You seem like you want some of this discussion, but I haven't seen any rebuttals just idle drivel.

 

Fine, I'll play rhetoric with you. Which of your arguments do you want me to rebut?

 

 

Posted

What does it mean to "go after Iraq's oil?" I don't believe the US intends to commandeer their oil, if that is what you mean. We just want to add Iraq's oil to the world markets at full capacity, which would hold down prices and therby help us. They have not been developing their reserves because of the sanctions.

 

Posted

If we wanted Iraq's oil, we would have added it to the world's reserves in 1991 when we invaded Iraq the first time. People came up with the same lousy argument back in 1991 .. they said that was one of the reasons we were invading then. But we don't have control of Iraq's reserves now do we?

 

Round 6! boxing_smiley.gif

Posted

Pick one what?

 

Regarding the bases, we'd like to get out of Saudi and Kuwait and probably Qatar too. Consolidate, so to speak.

 

I also believe that we are hoping to put leverage on the other autocratic regimes in the region in hopes they will institute reforms. It's pretty risky, if you ask me.

Posted
fleblebleb said:

 

Actually, being a college student does make you educated. That's the whole point. However, you can dispute the quality of the education, and students may not all be well informed, but hey - that's splitting hairs isn't it?

 

 

No it doesn't. College does NOT make you educated one bit. I know a lot of dumb college graduates .. some of the same people who are saying, "no war for oil". Dumb.

Posted
catbirdseat said:

Pick one what?

 

Regarding the bases, we'd like to get out of Saudi and Kuwait and probably Qatar too. Consolidate, so to speak.

 

I also believe that we are hoping to put leverage on the other autocratic regimes in the region in hopes they will institute reforms. It's pretty risky, if you ask me.

 

So you're basing your entire argument on a "probably" (don't shoot the messenger, you're the one who typed it). We "probably" want to get out of Kuwait? What event in history has led you to believe that the US wants out of Kuwait and needs a base in Iraq? This seems contrived. I know you can do better.

 

Consolidate? Last time I checked it was a whole lot better to have bases in different places than having all your eggs in one basket so to speak. So how is it that the strategy is to consolidate all of a sudden?

 

 

Posted
catbirdseat said:

Trash, you think the Cold War is over. Think again. Nothing has changed other than the rate of increase of military spending has slowed somewhat. All the conditions that existed between the USSR and the US for four decades still are in place. Russia still has weapons, China has weapons, Korea. Nothing has changed, except that countries have been talking to one another more and have been trading with one another. A measure of trust has built up. Well, we're not doing much to instill trust in the North Koreans, are we? Bush is refusing to talk with them. Not too smart if you ask me.

 

well, I'm not asking you Tom Daschel Jr. Why don't you fly down to SF and protest with the rest of the trash.

Posted
tomcat said:

If we wanted Iraq's oil, we would have added it to the world's reserves in 1991 when we invaded Iraq the first time. People came up with the same lousy argument back in 1991 .. they said that was one of the reasons we were invading then. But we don't have control of Iraq's reserves now do we?

 

Round 6! boxing_smiley.gif

 

Guess what, the US (as part of a true multinational force not the current 'coalition of oh you can use our airspace if you bribe us' didnt invade Iraq in 91, they stopped at the Kuwaiti border cause the UN mandate did not extend to invasion, only repulsing the Iraqi invasion. fruit.gif

Posted

Catturd -

My arguments have been posted for the last three months. I'm done arguing. Now I'm kicking' back with some little smokies and a beer and enjoying the Big Show. Give it a rest.

Posted (edited)

lemme see if i can time this baby right. good thing iain is busy with ikari warriors.... snaf.gif

damn. 2 people should have posted in the time it took me to wrtite that!!! rolleyes.gif

Edited by Dru
Posted
Dru said:

tomcat said:

If we wanted Iraq's oil, we would have added it to the world's reserves in 1991 when we invaded Iraq the first time. People came up with the same lousy argument back in 1991 .. they said that was one of the reasons we were invading then. But we don't have control of Iraq's reserves now do we?

 

Round 6! boxing_smiley.gif

 

Guess what, the US (as part of a true multinational force not the current 'coalition of oh you can use our airspace if you bribe us' didnt invade Iraq in 91, they stopped at the Kuwaiti border cause the UN mandate did not extend to invasion, only repulsing the Iraqi invasion. fruit.gif

 

You better check your history! I've got friends who were personally in Iraq in 1991 sending 120mm smooth bore SABOs down range! If that's not an invasion, I don't know what is.

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