Trails for a workout needed

[Rocksanyone]

I was hoping someone could give me some info on a long day hike that would give me a good workout. I'm in the planning stages to do some alpine climbing. Rainer, Adams, Hood and Shasta, not necessarily in that order but those are on my "to do" list for this spring and summer. I hiked up Mt. Si on Monday and it was a fair workout. I did it in about 80minutes, without a pack up to Haystack. I thought about caring a pack but I've read that it's not necessary to do so.

Any suggestions would be appreciated!

 

[leejams]

Hmm, If you are training for those climbs specifically you should be training with a pack and a sorta heavy one. I have heard somewhere to carry water jugs on your training climbs and then dump em at the top to save your knees on the way down.

[leejams]

Oh and I forgot to mention whitehorse for a training climb. You can drive right to the trailhead and it is like just under 6,000 vertical foot climb. I will give ya a shout when I head back if interested.

[Jens]

Ditto the water dump out to save knees.

 

Also poles help save knees.

 

Anybody know if putting ankle weights on is safe? Somebody once said that they can destroy knees in hurry. I want more weight on my feet because I always suck wind bad with heavy boots, crampons, balled-up snow, wet socks, and gaiters. Seems like 15 pounds on each foot!

 

[To_The_Top]

Try Mailbox peak. Just off I-90 past North Bend, and yes on the water and poles like Jens said.

People train alot on Si, and people have done it under an hour routinely, not that 80 minutes isnt bad at all.

TTT

[Rocksanyone]

Thanks for all your help! Although is it really good to suffer sooo much. I am trying to be easy on my knees. ACL replacment surgery last June has slowed me down a bit but not my enthusiasm. I like Mailbox! It's been a couple years since I went up that one. Forgot exactly the location but I never forgot the thigh burn. In a downpoor up that trail. Had a blast comming down though!! Any time you want to go up let me know and I'm there!!!

[jules]

And Teneriffe, just east of Si. Don't follow the old logging roads, take the somewhat discreet trail to the right just as the road turns uphill. This old trail follows the stream/waterfall straight up to the ridgeline, and becomes almost non-existent on the ridge. Just follow ridge to summit (sometimes tape marks the trail thru the trees). Probably best to take the road on the way down, you'll be able to move faster. Elev gain approx 4000' in about 3.5 miles.

Also Mt Higgins just east of Arlington. Elev gain 3500' in 4.5 miles, with most elev gained in first and last miles. Spectacular views.

My other 2cents: train with a pack. Doesn't have to be real heavy, but I'd suggest getting used to carrying some. Makes a big diff in my opinion. Of course, a 40lb pack is 40% of my body weight. Crap. I'd better start bulking up.

[Rocksanyone]

leejams said:

Oh and I forgot to mention whitehorse for a training climb. You can drive right to the trailhead and it is like just under 6,000 vertical foot climb. I will give ya a shout when I head back if interested.

 

Absolutly, Give me a pm when you might be going up next and I'll be sure to join you! Thanks!!

[DPS]

I disagree with most of the previous posts. Training with a heavy pack trains you to be slow. The mountains you mentioned can all be climbed with a pack no heavier than 20 pounds if you pack carefully.

 

Train by running. Here are some suggestions:

 

Couger Mt; Wilderness Creek Trailhead on SR 900 ~4 miles south of I-90.

 

Tiger Mt. Highpoint Way, exit 20 on I-90. There is a great route on Tiger called 6/12 summits that is 34 miles with 8,000 + feet of elevation gain.

 

Mt Si. Nice for a quick, easy run.

 

If you are worried about not being strong enough then lift weights twice a week. Squats, lunges, leg press can build serious muscles.

[leejams]

danielpatricksmith said:

The mountains you mentioned can all be climbed with a pack no heavier than 20 pounds if you pack carefully.

 

Not doubting you but wondering what you are carrying on a volcano slog to keep the weight below 20 #? Could you post your gear list. I am in the process of replacing all my heavier gear and could use any suggestions.

[Courtenay]

For a list of possible conditioners along the I-90 corridor, check out http://www.bodyresults.com/S2I90hikes.asp; for more reading on trekking poles, we have an article up at http://www.bodyresults.com/E2trekkingpoles.asp with the caveat that if you're going to be doing glacier climbs, you'll want to be sure to wean yourself off using poles so you can be used to having hands on an ice axe for self-arrests; regarding pack weight, the best way to train for a climb that will require you to carry a lot of weight is to ... get used to carrying a lot of weight. Running ONLY, flat, unweighted, is NOT the best way to get ready for climbing. Trail running is a little better. But carrying weight to get your legs properly conditioned for the added strength endurance required definitely helps probably 95% of the people I've trained.

[Courtenay]

Rather than ankle weights on the ankles, why not train with the boots you're going to be wearing? And yes, carrying extra water weight and then dumping it at the top is a great way to train, just make sure by the time you're doing your climbs you can carry down whatever you carry up. We've got all these tips and many, many more in our Train to Climb Mt. Rainier video (2002) complete with a 6-month conditioning program available at http://www.bodyresults.com/p1rainier.asp.

[Rocksanyone]

danielpatricksmith said:

I disagree with most of the previous posts. Training with a heavy pack trains you to be slow. The mountains you mentioned can all be climbed with a pack no heavier than 20 pounds if you pack carefully.

 

Train by running. Here are some suggestions:

 

Couger Mt; Wilderness Creek Trailhead on SR 900 ~4 miles south of I-90.

 

Tiger Mt. Highpoint Way, exit 20 on I-90. There is a great route on Tiger called 6/12 summits that is 34 miles with 8,000 + feet of elevation gain.

 

Mt Si. Nice for a quick, easy run.

 

If you are worried about not being strong enough then lift weights twice a week. Squats, lunges, leg press can build serious muscles.

 

I love trail running! I try to run up at Tiger and Cougar as often as I can. As with weights I train about 5-6 days a week. less when I have my kids.. The trail you're speaking of on Tiger,6/12 summits do you or is there a way to get this on paper? That sounds like a solid day of trails that I would be interested in. Thanks!!!

[Distel32]

a not very difficult but long hike is up to spectacle lake. It's round trip 22miles, but my friend and I did it in just under hours with lunch at the lake. very flat for first 9 miles or so, then a little elevation gain, do with 20lb pack. very fun trip.

[Terminal_Gravity]

I find a basic flaw in your question, rocksanyone. There is a very big difference between training and conditioning. Sure, being in shape is a good thing but to "train" is very different.

 

I also think that most of the responses, while they might be addressing the intent of your question, are supporting a potentially dangerious line of reasoning. Courtenay has the correct idea, wear your boots on training hikes.

 

Far to often people fail on a climb or worse yet, get into trouble, because they are attempting something, longer, steeper, higher AND colder on climbs with some gear that they have never used in a real situation or even ever tried. We have all seen, or atleast heard of, somebody fumbling with their brand new or rented crampons at the bottom of a moderate snow slope not even knowing if (or how) they fit on their boots. The four mountains you have listed can kill you if you push beyond the limits of your experience in too many ways. It is currently in vogue to train for cravasse rescue or take avy classes, but not being sure that your crampon will not come off, is just as important as having an afternoon of playing with ropes and cracks in the ice on a sunny afternoon on the Ingrahm.

 

If you plan to spend 12 hours in your boots on Shasta, you should spend 18 hours hiking on trails around home. If you are going to climb 5000 feet up and down Hood on snow, you sure as hell better know that your body can go 7000 feet up & down on mount Si even if it takes several laps. You should carefully fit your crampons and then go out to a tree in your yard, kick them in deep and try to force them off. Don't accept "good enough". Make absolutely sure that they will stay on, that way when you are beat up tired on Rainier and stumble while decending, you won't have to find out if your buddies were paying attention in that cravasse extraction class. Go practice self arrest. If your are concerned about the elevation, climb Whitney in the summer or better yet Orizaba. Know what the altitude feels like before you mix it up with the other difficulties of Rainier. It might be difficult finding a cold enough night in Seattle to even have a clue as to weather or not your bag works for you but next time you are in Nebraska in the winter don't stay at Motel 6, camp by your car and test your gear. Climb Mount Si in the worst storm of the winter, if your clothing fails, you will live through it. But, even a moderate storm high on Adams will kill you if your clothes failed on Si. Practice self arrest some more.

 

The point is, real training for the mountains should involve, as much as possible, taking a single aspect of every possible part of the climb and making sure that you and your gear can do what is required and more, in a safe environment before you add everything together on a mountain. It is often appropriate to go for one personal best on a mountain but you should not go for two at the same time. Some people get away with going well beyond their experience level on a mountain but if something goes wrong they end up becoming a liability to others.

 

I climbed Rainier for the first time, solo and car to car, but that was the only thing that was the first for me. I had been alot higher, alot colder, been out alot longer, delt with alot worse crevasse issues, soloed steeper, bivied under worse conditions and knew my gear inside out. A storm hit early, and surprised me, but because of the depth of my training I not only summited, I had that sick sort of fun that comes with intensity and made it safely down. Three other people died in that storm.

 

I hope I have not offended you ( or anybody in this forum ) for spewing all of the above and standing on my soap box. Maybe your a more experienced climber that I have surmised and really only wanted thoughts on conditioning.

[adventuregal]

Jens said:

Ditto the water dump out to save knees.

 

Also poles help save knees.

 

Anybody know if putting ankle weights on is safe? Somebody once said that they can destroy knees in hurry. I want more weight on my feet because I always suck wind bad with heavy boots, crampons, balled-up snow, wet socks, and gaiters. Seems like 15 pounds on each foot!

 

 

Ankle weights are bad news!!! They'll destroy your joints... Don't do it man!!!

[leejams]

Terminal Gravity, Very good point's indeed.

[Rocksanyone]

Teminal, Excellent points and every word understood! I am just starting out and have a few experienced friends who are going to help me. But I never can get enough info. I sponge everything that I can get. If you have anything more to tell it would be more than welcome! Thanks

 

 

[DPS]

Rocksanyone:

 

The 6/12 route is described in very good detail in Trail Running Guide to Western Washington: Over 50 great Trail Runs by Mike McQuaide. I have a photocopy of that section somewhere. I can't adequately describe the route as I have only run it once following someone else. I see that you live in Renton. I live in Issaquah, email me if you are interested in trail running, we can talk climbing at the same time. bighurtbob@hotmail.com

 

Courtney is correct when she writes that the only way to train for a climb that requires one to carry a lot of weight is to carry a lot of weight. The thing is, I can't think of any climbs that require one to carry a lot of weight.

 

Colin did an impressive traverse of 7 (or more) pickets summits with a sub 20 pound pack. That's bivi gear, rope, rack crampons, ice tools etc. Far more gear than one would need for any of the mountains that Rocksanyone mentioned.

 

Leejams:

 

Here is a list of items I would take on a non-technical overnight route on Rainier:

 

Black Diamond Ice Pack

Stubai Aluminum Crampons

Grivel Air Tech Racing Axe

REI Onsight harness

Midweight long underwear top and bottom

Lt weight Schoeller Dynamic pants, simple, no zippers or extra pockets.

Marmot Precip Jacket

Marmot down Sweater

Primaloft mittens/gloves

fleece liner gloves

fleece hat

Black Diamond Betamid tent, shared

Feathered Friends Virio Sleeping bag

blue foam pad, cut down to fit shoulders to hips, tapered.

Pocket Rocket, 1 liter Pot, wire gate biner used for lifter, 1 large fuel canister

7.8 mm, 37 meter rope, shared

Black Diamond Big Easy locking biners, 2, a couple of spectra slings, pulley, 4 wire gate 'biners

Prussik slings

Picket

2 liters of water

Food.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 21, 2003 by danielpatricksmith

[leejams]

DPS, appreciate the effort. I think one area that I definately need to trim weight is my kelty 4 season shelter. Nice tent but weighs probably 10# or more! Have you ever been in a roaring wind storm and or snow/rain with that betamid?

[obsydian]

Far to often people fail on a climb or worse yet, get into trouble, because they are attempting something, longer, steeper, higher AND colder on climbs with some gear that they have never used in a real situation or even ever tried.

Absolutely! I see people "conditioning" on Si with 30 lbs on their back, up and down in 4 hours, then expect to climb Rainier without further problems and fail. You should be taking 60 lbs up Si (mostly water), and do it several times, or get out on some really long climbs. Go up to Muir with 60 lbs. You're training needs to exceed the demands of the climb. And for sure, use your climbing boots

[eric8]

There are lot of hikes that make for good conditionors. Alot of moderate to easy summer hikes make for a good conditionor in winter due to the longer approach and snow on the ground. I would recommond going up to sahale when avy conditions are good. You'll get good views and a little work out too. Dickerman and pilchuck are nice work out if you do them both in a day. Get a partner and try to due Ruth and Icy in a day.(I haven't done this one but it seems feasible). I guess the point is there are a lot of good hikes to train on. No one has mentioned the cable line on tiger yet, while not a day hike its gains about 2000ft in 1.5 miles its nice to due when you have a lot of other stuff going on that day.

 

I would also recommond if possible to train with your partners, since you will be roped up together it sucks if there slow.

 

My opinion on the weight issue is you need to address your strengths and weakness. When your pushing yourself up a slope is it your lungs or legs that slow you down. If its your legs put some weight in a pack and have at it if its your lungs go trail running.

[DPS]

Leejams,

 

I have been in a moderate storm on Ptarmigan Ridge on Rainier with the Betamid. Worked very well, winds were `30 mph. I would not want to be in an all out tempest, though. I would go with a Bibler or Integral Designs for that kind of weather.

 

Obsydian,

 

While I agree that training needs to exceed the demands of the climb, I disagree that carrying a big pack is the way to do. Carrying a heavy pack up Si trains you to be slow. Train cardio by doing long slow distance (trail running for 1.5-4 hours) and interval training (stairs) and strength by lifting weights (espeically squats). I have seen people fail on Rainier because they could not carry their packs a few times, but this was because they did not know how to pack. More often I have seen people fail because they did not have cardiovascular endurance.

Edited February 24, 2003 by danielpatricksmith

[Courtenay]

<<Courtney is correct when she writes that the only way to train for a climb that requires one to carry a lot of weight is to carry a lot of weight. The thing is, I can't think of any climbs that require one to carry a lot of weight>>

 

Well, when we're more experienced climbers and have learned all the shortcuts with saving weight by taking a second mortgage out on the house, then you can do all sorts of fancy climbs with minimal weight. HOWEVER, I have yet to see very many people on a first attempt of Denali, for example, go with anything less than 70# (in several carries, maybe, or pulling a sled) -- it just ISN'T GOING TO HAPPEN. So as Obsydian points out, if you're going to have a 40-50# pack on your back for a climb in the Cascades, train with 60 so 40 feels light. As Marc Twight says in his book, "Make yourself as indestructible as possible. The harder you are to kill, the longer you will last in the mountains." If you only train to carry 30-40# and your climbing partners have trouble and need to have you help with group gear and you haven't trained with that kind of weight, you're going to tire yourself out. Danielpatricksmith, points well taken, but I hope you see the other side's values as well.

[Courtenay]

Eric8: <<My opinion on the weight issue is you need to address your strengths and weakness. When your pushing yourself up a slope is it your lungs or legs that slow you down. If its your legs put some weight in a pack and have at it if its your lungs go trail running. >>

 

100% in agreement here. I've seen people with marathon endurance suffer on climbs because they couldn't carry the weight. And I'm sure there are some really strong people who suffer because they lack cardio endurance. Maybe the people I've seen lately have been uncommon examples -- little cardio, lots of strength, and doing just as well as anyone else on the mountains because their bodies were used to extremes in strength. Not saying that's the case everywhere. Yes indeed, figure out your weaknesses and work on them first, be that learning how to pack less and carry lighter weight, get your body stronger so you can carry more weight, or blast your heart and lungs so you have the cardio capacity of a horse. 'nuff said.