erik Posted February 7, 2003 Share Posted February 7, 2003 was reading this the other night and i always love this stuff. this is taken from Clint Cummins old index guide book and it is sorely missed from his scanned copy. http://www.stanford.edu/~clint/index/ The use of non-fixed pitons was abandoned on free routes in the early 70s, due to their obvious destructive impact. Since then, many aid routes have also gone "clean" (hammerless), thanks to modem gear. Strangely enough, people are still nailing some of the clean (and free) routes at Index a person was seen nailing Iron Horse in winter '97 and became abusive when confronted. Dana's Arch is still nailed occasionally, in spite of the bolts added to preserve what is left of the crack, and the rating has dropped by a full grade from when it was originally toproped due to the enlarged pin scars. Nailing on clean routes must be stopped, since with modern gear and the huge choice of routes at Index, there is simply no justification for its destructive impact. Please stop anyone who is nailing a clean route be nice at first (a phrase like "we don't do that anymore around here" is useful) Nailing on "unclean" aid routes should also be minimized. Many beginning aid climbers believe that aid is synonymous with nailing, and that nailing is an essential skill to learn for big walls. In fact, most popular big walls (Liberty Crack, Grand Wall, Washington Column, Leaning Tower, Half Dome, Nose, Salathe) are done hammerless by at least 95% of current teams. Longer walls with more extensive aid (Green Dragon, Town Crier, Golden Arch, Shield, Mescalito, Zodiac) are done with minimal pin racks; using clean gear is simply faster, easier, and more familiar, not to mention being non-destructive. Accordingly, aid is best learned on clean routes first (free routes are fine, but avoid the popular ones since aid is slow). Nailing (and bolting) is best learned (if at all) by borrowing a hammer and some pins (Lost Arrows to a 3/4" angle -- many old-timers have extensive collections gathering dust in their closets); don't buy them since you may then feel obligated or justified to use them! Select a cracked boulder in a talus field, a road cut, or a blocky area where free climbing would not be popular (such as the area immediately left of Snowdonia on the Lower Lump, or the Wart). Experiment and you will soon discover how destructive pins are (and how to place them) without hurting any climbs. Chipping an editorial A few new routes at Index are chipped. This is defined in the Introduction as holds enhanced/crack enlarged deliberately by FFA party to make the moves easier (or harder). While a guidebook should be factual and impartial, to fail to identify the chipped routes and to say nothing about the issue would implicitly endorse the practice. The climbing community is in fact divided, and it's not just the top climbers vs. the bumblies. I feel that a moratorium should be placed on chipping. while the current chipped routes and projects are evaluated. Try the routes, and let the FA people know your opinion (pro or con). Personally, I feel that the use of artificial holds and created routes should be restricted to the gym; when we go out to the crags, we are expecting to encounter "real" climbing! If a section of a route does not go free, AO bolts should be used; it gives others a chance to free the moves (or aid the moves and try the remainder of the route), and the bolts can be easily removed later if necessary (while chipped holds are much harder to "remove"). Chipping raises several complex issues (for a background, see Climbing #106 p.122-123, #112 p.6, #122 p.l34-136,p.34, #126 p.30). Chipped routes are really just thinly disguised aid routes (with free ratings except for the "chipped" notation here). The FA or "FFA" party couldn't do the moves and instead of using aid bolts, they decided to alter the holds to make the route "go" (usually on a short and not completely blank section of rock). I see three main questions/problems with chipping: 1. Will it go free without chipping? The only way to honestly test this is to leave it unchipped and see if anyone can free it. People who think it can be freed must be willing to give it a try, but if they fail, it still proves nothing. 'If it does go free, the FA party will still get some credit for discovering and cleaning and bolting the route, so they have little to lose (except their pride) by putting it up for grabs. 2.Chipping has a bigger (rock) impact than bolting, and it is hard to reverse. Drilled holes and pockets can be 99% filled in, but pin scars are nearly impossible to fix, and enhanced edges are also hopeless to restore since the original shape of the holds has been lost. Also, asking aid climbers to stop nailing if we are chipping is hypocritical. 3. Are chipped moves better than pulling on an AO fixed sling or quickdraw? Both are aid, and chipped holds on granite are usually painfully obvious the illusion of free climbing is hard to maintain, although the physical challenge is there. Pulling on a sling may result in a rest between two sustained sections, even if it is held only briefly. A true free climber will reject chipping as (ironic) aid, and will tolerate an AID section if attempting to free it. A climber just looking for a good workout will say anything goes. Probably most of us lie somewhere in the middle, we like a good physical challenge, but we do not enjoy artificial holds on the crags and we feel that routes above our abilities should be left for other more talented climbers to try. Perhaps the good workouts should be had on other routes, at the gym, or at steeper climbing areas (Smith Rock and the new limestone and basalt areas), instead of trying to construct them at Index. Other definitions are possible. For example, "chipped" could be defined by the current condition of the route, rather than the condition at the time of the (apparent) FFA. Under this definition, the "retro-filled" (as claimed) route would not have a t, while the "aggressively cleaned" route would. However, extending, the definition to all routes with old pin scars or all that have been cleaned (or bolted) would be pointless, because the focus on "free climbing potential, as modified by the FFA party" is lost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dwayner Posted February 7, 2003 Share Posted February 7, 2003 "Dana's Arch is still nailed occasionally, in spite of the bolts added to preserve what is left of the crack." Ain't that ironic! Bolt the face to preserve the crack! Makes me wanna puke. It seems to me to be an excuse to make it safer for free-climbing because that route is hard to protect free. Same thing with the catastrophe known as "Numbah Ten". on the Lower Wall. It seems to have been sport bolted because few have the nerve to protect the nearby crack while free-climbing. What's the controversy with chipping? It's foolish and destructive and just another way to bring the climb down to your level like the examples above. Don't do it! - Dwayner Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr._Natural Posted February 7, 2003 Share Posted February 7, 2003 okay erik I will play. hyperthetikal situashun: 40 foot la seam off the deck, clean stuff above. cam hooks? sure, but if one should blow its decksville. 1 pin 25 or so feet up will keep you from decking. what do you do, what do you do? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted February 7, 2003 Share Posted February 7, 2003 i like whammin in pins but not on freed/clean cracks. there are plenty that dont go free yet to nail up. bingbingbingBINGBING! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
COL._Von_Spanker Posted February 7, 2003 Share Posted February 7, 2003 Personally, I feel that the use of artificial holds and created routes should be restricted to the gym Exit 38 is considered a gym right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr_Flash_Amazing Posted February 7, 2003 Share Posted February 7, 2003 BRING BACK THE PLASTIC CAVE! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronco Posted February 7, 2003 Share Posted February 7, 2003 Interesting to hear chipping considered aid and the connection between damage from using pins compared to chipping. Not sure if I buy it, it's a little too black & white. So are copperheads smeared on a little divet in the rock considered clean or ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted February 7, 2003 Share Posted February 7, 2003 Man, that plastic cave from the days of yore rocked!! I know it was a blight and all of that, but Darius' route out the main overhang kicked ass for running laps on... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cracked Posted February 7, 2003 Share Posted February 7, 2003 Gyms rock. Period. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr_Flash_Amazing Posted February 7, 2003 Share Posted February 7, 2003 Man, that plastic cave from the days of yore rocked!! I know it was a blight and all of that, but Darius' route out the main overhang kicked ass for running laps on... Never actually climbed any of those routes, but the whole idea has to be one of the most comically stupid route-development schemes ever devised by the modern sports-climbing mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt.Caveman Posted February 8, 2003 Share Posted February 8, 2003 Personally, I feel that the use of artificial holds and created routes should be restricted to the gym Exit 38 is considered a gym right? yes indeed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt.Caveman Posted February 8, 2003 Share Posted February 8, 2003 i like whammin in pins but not on freed/clean cracks. there are plenty that dont go free yet to nail up. bingbingbingBINGBING! Me too. I wont touch it with pins if someone does it on clean aid either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erik Posted February 10, 2003 Author Share Posted February 10, 2003 "Dana's Arch is still nailed occasionally, in spite of the bolts added to preserve what is left of the crack." Ain't that ironic! Bolt the face to preserve the crack! Makes me wanna puke. It seems to me to be an excuse to make it safer for free-climbing because that route is hard to protect free. Same thing with the catastrophe known as "Numbah Ten". on the Lower Wall. It seems to have been sport bolted because few have the nerve to protect the nearby crack while free-climbing. What's the controversy with chipping? It's foolish and destructive and just another way to bring the climb down to your level like the examples above. Don't do it! - Dwayner dwayner, so what is one to do in the case of dana's arch then?? a natural line that is/was being eatin up by pitons. what is a leader to do either free or aid? and do you advocate the halting in the advancement in the ability of free climbers??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dwayner Posted February 10, 2003 Share Posted February 10, 2003 Bro. Eric say: "so what is one to do in the case of dana's arch then?? a natural line that is/was being eatin up by pitons. what is a leader to do either free or aid?" Either way, climb it clean. Get out them tiny r.p.'s and such if need be. On the other hand, the damage has already been done twice....by pitons and bolts, so until someone removes the bolts, I suppose they are there for one's clipping pleasure if one so chooses. "and do you advocate the halting in the advancement in the ability of free climbers???" If "advancement" is bolt dependent, I don't see it as "advancement". Nor do I consider pink point/red point, lavender point or whatever "advancement". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted February 10, 2003 Share Posted February 10, 2003 the rox would be awfully crowded oncertain routes, if everyone was still climbing henry barber style with no friends, no chalk, and barefoot. think of the lineups on martian diagonal! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cracked Posted February 11, 2003 Share Posted February 11, 2003 How do you define 'advancement', then? Seems like the trad establishment was threatened by the abilities of the sport climbers' arrival 20 years ago, and it hasn't changed for some. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erik Posted February 11, 2003 Author Share Posted February 11, 2003 How do you define 'advancement', then? Seems like the trad establishment was threatened by the abilities of the sport climbers' arrival 20 years ago, and it hasn't changed for some. cracked, how has the arrival of sport climbing threatend trad climbing?? i would love if more people sport climbed and didnt frequent the places i enjoy to go. but that is neither really here or there. i really find is hysterically funny how people feel the need to seperate themselves in the sport. trad vs bolts or whatever...i could care less. i look at sport climbing as a way to improve strength and conditioning for trad climbing, grated i rarely sport climb and that is possibly why i suck.... i used to share dwyaners stoic ideals of pure traditionalism and in most ways still do cry "respect the rock" but with rational thinking and a more borad view of reality, i have found that it is a equalibriam. certainly the apperance of bolts has made the sport more asseciable, but is that bad? yes with crowding issues(broad statement(including impact blah blah blah)), but from any other stand point no. i think it is selfish and out right a waste of time and effort to say one aspect of the sport is more worthy then any other. bolts have allowed me to use some amazing features and ascend some very intreguing and entertaing walls. and in topic, this weekend i was chatting it up with some non-climber spectators at the lower town and i queried them about the bolts and other impacts. they both state that the webbing was worse, and that the bolts mean little to them. places like exit 38, 32 and vantage might not be the best climbing, nor the best rock, but they serve a purpose and that purpose is recreation. and that is what climbing is, recreation. there are a few whom actually live by climbing, and they are lucky. though in some ways missing out on many other aspects of life. but who knows??? i think the people who talk the most shit about bolts are the ones, whom maybe have something lingering with them. they are the ones with the issue. but leave bolting in bolting area, follow the ethic(yes they do evolve) of an area. and climb in the best stlye that you know how too.... sport climbing forever!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1 trad climbing forever!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! alpine climbing forever!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! bouldering forever!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1 ice climbing forever!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and i guess mtneering forever too! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cracked Posted February 11, 2003 Share Posted February 11, 2003 Yes. Plus it's fun to argue about bolting. It's like arguing religion: nobody ever wins, yet nobody loses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dwayner Posted February 11, 2003 Share Posted February 11, 2003 Dru-dude say: "the rox would be awfully crowded oncertain routes, if everyone was still climbing henry barber style with no friends, no chalk, and barefoot. think of the lineups on martian diagonal!" Wrong, man. There would be a lot fewer people climbing. With acceptance of sport-climbing tactics, climbing has been dumb-downed so the wider masses can participate. Along with incessant magazine-hype and stores like REI who aim to get as many people interested to sell as much gear as possible. Get rid of the sport-climbs at Smith and Vantage and these places would be relatively quiet on a nice weekend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dwayner Posted February 11, 2003 Share Posted February 11, 2003 Yes. Plus it's fun to argue about bolting. It's like arguing religion: nobody ever wins, yet nobody loses. Dwayner wins. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erik Posted February 11, 2003 Author Share Posted February 11, 2003 Yes. Plus it's fun to argue about bolting. It's like arguing religion: nobody ever wins, yet nobody loses. i beg to differ my friend arguing about something that is totally made up and used to mislead people who would rather not have to make difficult decisions by themselves, is a waste of time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cracked Posted February 11, 2003 Share Posted February 11, 2003 So why are you arguing? Dwayner, you have not won. You will have won once everybody starts chopping bolts and climbing only trad, alpine and ice routes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erik Posted February 11, 2003 Author Share Posted February 11, 2003 So why are you arguing? Dwayner, you have not won. You will have won once everybody starts chopping bolts and climbing only trad, alpine and ice routes. i was talking about religon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cracked Posted February 11, 2003 Share Posted February 11, 2003 Oops, my bad. It's good to know that we agree on certain points. There are certain parallels, though. Cheers: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dwayner Posted February 11, 2003 Share Posted February 11, 2003 "Listen here, you bad boys! Dwayner knows what he's talking about. So go sit in a quiet place for a little while and learn to accept that. By the way, you guys are looking kind of skinny.....here, have some cake." Love, Rabbi Schlomo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.