The numbers game

[Terminal_Gravity]

I was talking to a fellow climber yesterday. He was sharing how much fun he had climbing rock, ice, glaciers...anything that would not leave him buried under snow or at the bottom of a cliff bleeding out. And then, he kind of sheepishly told me that he only leads 10A.

What is it about the numbers that makes people worry about their value as a person. I think that is a sad part of our sport. If you have fun climbing (and don't die doing it) I say that is all the sucess that you need.

If pushing your limits is fun, then do it; if climbing below your top limits is fun then do that and don't feel bad about it not being as big of a number as another climber.

From personal experience in the early eighties I pushed my limits in Yosimite, it was what I wanted to do. Was it fun? I don't really know anymore...maybe not. When I started leading 11's I lost my partner (and best friend) of 9 years. It wasn't fun for him anymore. After I put my name on a first ascent that later was upgraded to 12A, I knew that to climb bigger numbers I was going to have to spend alot more time on diet, lifting weights and less time with friends drinking beer and enjoying life. I even considered steriods. But instead of doing all that I just quit rock climbing for several years. I was climbing for the numbers and it's pretty clear that I wasn't having fun anymore. I should have been climbing more - not harder.

My 2 cents is...concentrate on the fun and not the numbers and don't ever be little anyone or yourself for not climbing big numbers.

[This message has been edited by Terminal Gravity (edited 10-09-2001).]

[willstrickland]

I think I share alot of your sentiment. While some of my most memorable climbs have been hard (for me), even more have been easy.

Is concern over numbers always an ego issue?

I personally don't think so. One of my goals in climbing is to climb Astroman clean. To me that means I need to be solid at a certain grade to be able to pull it off and not be sketching all over the place. Astroman is certainly a respected climb, but it's not like I'm cranking Love Supreme, Phoenix, etc. Not many people are impressed by a "mere .11c". Same deal with the Salathe...you don't need to climb that hard to get up it, but you damn well better not blow it on the 5.9R chimney sections (unless you wanna carry some #5's camalots and #4 big bros).

To get the most out of a route I like to feel solid but challenged. To just scrape by is cool sometimes, maybe while finally firing that boulder problem you've been working, or if you're a sport monkey finally finishing that project that's a couple of grades above your personal best. My preferred MO is onsighting long free routes and scraping by sometimes means not quite scraping by...easy for me on crag routes, whatever...lower and try again or get on something else, but eight pitches off the ground you might NEED to fire that awkward slot or flaring crack to enjoy the rest of the route.

I guess what I'm saying is I don't care how hard you climb, the only bearing it has on anything is whether we can partner on a particular route and/or who might lead which pitches. I care about how hard I climb only in relation to being able to climb cool routes that require climbing at a certain level. I look at what I see as the coolest routes in the country, things like Astroman, the Primrose Dihedrals,Monkeyfinger, the Rostrum, Fine Jade, and plenty on the Diamond and Tetons, and they require a certain ability...not world class ability or bragging rights ability but you get the point.

 

[goatboy]

I guess my question is, What ARE big numbers?

I've been climbing about ten years and feel proud when I lead anything in the 5.10's, especially in the alpine. I've climbed harder on some days, and failed on 5.9's other days...

I believe that the climbing mags have amped everyone up by touting the handfull of mutants who CAN convince their bionic tendons to climb 5.13's, 5.14's, whatever . . . . leading many of us to overlook or belittle what an accomplishment safely leading 5.7's can be!!!!

Thanks for starting this post, I appreciate hearing your thoughts on this topic, and am curious what others will say.

[This message has been edited by goatboy (edited 10-09-2001).]

[Cpt.Caveman]

I climb V420 with a malt liquor in one hand. I can also fire up 5.2 dirt in the mountains well <---Superflail geak is here! Look at those glasses it looks just like me!

[This message has been edited by Cpt.Caveman (edited 10-09-2001).]

[David_Parker]

When I was younger, I used to be concerned about numbers. It's natural to want to compare yourself to some sort of scale. It feeds the ego. One of my best friends who unfortunately is a total armchair mountaineer is always talking about how he did an 11a at the gym. Booooooring!!! He always talks about getting out into the Sierras (he lives in SF) But when it comes down to it he always has an excuse and never goes. I don't think he's really having any fun.

I only lead up to 5.9 trad and am damn proud of it! Following 10a/b is my total limit and it is not always fun. I am only interested in fun and am willing to put up with the not so fun stuff to get there. Rarely is the overall memory not fun. What is fun is cruising long routes in the mountains that are up to 5.8!!! I can attack these with total confidence and that gets me to plenty of steep stuff with exposure. I'm in the mountains, away from lifes pressures and complications. That is fun! Fortunately I am also an ice climber and so if a route has ice, I'm more than less attracted to it. I personally don't feel I'm missing out on anything by not climbing hard rock. Climbing is more than about the actual "climbing". It's the drive, the tunes, the beer, the funny cigarettes, the approach, the bushwacking, crossing rivers, getting off route, good weather, bad weather, being warm, being cold, a sunny summit, a raging snowstorm, scary rapells, walk offs, going solo, placing gear, managing the ropes.... the list goes on and on and on. Its also about the comradery with your partner(s).

I quit buying the climbing mags a long time ago. Maybe those guys cranking 5.13 are having fun but to me its all shallow. As tempting as it is, I also don't feel the need to have the newest gear. There IS so much more than the numbers!

[chelle]

This is a great thread. Thanks for putting it out there Terminal.

David, you are so right. For me it is about the community and time in the mountains with people who also love being there and don't question the risk/reward. The simplicity of just focusing on getting up a beautiful route in good style, regardless of the grade.

Unfortunately I think our nature in general is to assign people (and ourslevels) to categories or stereotypes to make order out of everything around us.

My personal goal is to someday be able to lead climb solidly in the 5.10 range so I can climb pretty much anywhere in the world. Not sure if I can attain this, but I'm having fun trying to get there. I am absolutely stoked that I can safely lead 5.6/7 routes now and I learn something everytime I follow on a harder route.

Honestly I'm also happy about pushing myself in the gym to climb the 5.10d's because I'm getting stronger and improving my technique. And most importantly having fun climbing with friends during the week.

About the mags... I haven't had much interest in reading them since I moved up here in July and actually started getting out in the mountains more. I'd rather climb than read about others climbing routes that I don't even aspire to try.

That's my 1.5 cents.

[Latch_Holeflaffer]

I can really relate to your sentiments Terminal. I also pushed my limits in the California scene in the 70’s. Numbers were important. Style was very important. I heard several big dogs of the time berate others for perceived style infractions. Many of these people on both sides of the style wars openly admitted to wanting to be famous. Some climbed for numbers some for style(boldness). A lot of the time these big egos were big jerks. Since climbing was their whole world their rank in that world became very important. They had stopped climbing for fun and climbed for status. For a few rare individuals that status came easy and they continued to have fun and their self worth was not directly tied to their climbing performance. For others it’s all they had. I got caught up in that for a little while too. Climbing wasn’t fun. With maturity and introspection my attitude changed and I looked at climbing as a hobby or recreation and I started having fun again. My ability to do harder and harder climbs really slowed down. The quest for classic fun routes no matter the grade became important. Eventually other sports came into favor and I stopped climbing entirely, but I was having fun. Last year my daughter got me into climbing again. I am having more fun climbing now than I ever have. When I climb with my daughter we don’t care about the grade we just climb and life is beautiful.

[Rodchester]

I'm with DRU.

Numbers should help us...not be bragging rights. I couldn't give a shit about some asshole who brags about climbing 5.whatever...but I will high-five someone who pushes themselves to be better and is proud of themselves...especially if they buy a round.

mmm beer

[Dru]

This girl I know, Miranda, learned how to place gear on saturday, and on sunday was leading 5.9 Roof Crack at Mounties Dome, tried to dyno over lip of roof, fell off and sprained her ankle

I think that's way cooler than someone, kid or not, who leads 5.12 after climbing in the gym for a month.

[Cpt.Caveman]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dru:

This girl I know, Miranda, learned how to place gear on saturday, and on sunday was leading 5.9 Roof Crack at Mounties Dome, tried to dyno over lip of roof, fell off and sprained her ankle

I think that's way cooler than someone, kid or not, who leads 5.12 after climbing in the gym for a month.

---

 

The real question is how did she look from below?

 

[Retrosaurus]

... and how did she look from on top?

[MysticNacho]

I don't know about you pikers, but I can climb 5.17, which means your all jealous of my amazing athletic ability. I love numbers so much I even make up songs about them. One of them goes something like this: "My names MysticNacho, I climb 5.24b A12 V57, la la, I'm so cool." Just wait until you all hear the actual tune, you'll be so envious of my singing ability too.

[Dru]

grades are important so when you go to do a route,lets say ne buttress of slesse, you know if 5.9 is a struggle for you you might have a hard time!

but on the other hand if someone comes up to you and brags about how they just flashed 14a, "whatever dude- i got more of a workout than that on a 5.9, and i get to eat real food too"

PS i redpointed 10d once and i onsighted a v2 at j tree but it was really v0+

[EddieE]

Right on. Use grades as adjectives to find appropriate partners and describe climbs, not as a blue ribbon you wear next to the Ropegun label on your baggy sweatshirt. Climbing is about the soul. If the second question you ask me, after finding out my name, is 'how hard do you climb?', you can blow me.

[This message has been edited by EddieE (edited 10-10-2001).]

[lizard_brain]

Originally posted by EddieE:

...you can blow me.

 

Only if you're 5.12 or better.

 

[Dru]

...unless the reason you are asking is because you want someone to second up some looong route. if you are looking for a partner for, let's say the Edwards/Spagnut on Steinbok, and your potential partner seconds 10a max and has never jumarred, hmmmm.... potential epic??

[Dru]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Retrosaurus:

... and how did she look from on top?

---

 

I was up at Prussik sitting in a cave drinking rum, remember. I'm reporting secondhand. Thought that was pretty damn cool. Another example, Lena Rowat, she has been climbing for ~5 months and she led the whole NE buttress of Slesse in August. That chick is a psycho though. Also insanely fit cause she is a circus athlete and can do one finger handstands and suchlike. so it aint much of a surprise there.

 

[Alex]

yeah, doing triple backs with no net is probably a little more psycho than leading, like, with a rope and everything.

I've found that people that find numbers important are typically people who are very goal oriented, or have never climbed at those numbers and (as has been said) want the reputation/notoriety/fame that goes with "big numbers". There is really nothing *wrong* with that as long as it doesnt hurt anyone else...if you have a big ego, and you need to compete (silently or otherwise) against people to get your motivation to climb, then thats *your* deal. There's nothing wrong with that, until you start putting others down for not being AS COOL AS YOU. To me, thats the line. Bragging is one thing, berating is completely differnt.

It always turns me off when I meet people who are ultra-competetive and not secure enough to just enjoy what they do for their own reasons. I don't think anyone here can deny that self-esteem is tied to accomplishment, but I think I've found that the more secure people are in their lives and position, the less "big number" accompishment they need in climbing. For those whose lives ARE climbing, big numbers come simply because these people climb all the time and at a higher standard.

Indeed, most of the most supportive climbers I know are that way because they have become secure in their abilities and accomplishments, and dont feel the need for you to be "as good as" them or compete in any way.

Nice thread, Alex

[Cpt.Caveman]

I don't think I ever climbed to impress anyone or to be competitive.

I like meeting new people and just being out there in the wilderness. I take mountain cllimbing like someone would an expedition into the jungles of Borneo. Except on a weekend warrior basis.

Along the way I have met many new and interesting people. I have learned a lot from these experiences and thus learned a lot about myself.

If I accomplish a number that I have not before I definitely feel good about it. I don't think that I am climbing at any high level that is for sure I don't foresee that coming any time soon either.

I don't agree that people chasing numbers are necessarily more goal oriented though. I think I have lots of goals that I have met and am happy about it. They may only be moderate by standards yet were goals I seeked out that took mental and physical ability to conquer.

Just my thoughts.

Still bouldering V420 and 5.2 dirt like I was in the beginning

[This message has been edited by Cpt.Caveman (edited 10-10-2001).]

[TimL]

This is a really good thread. In a sense we are all pursuing numbers in one form or the other whether it is alpine, aid, sport, gear wall routes...etc. For most people the natural progression of climbing leads to attempting bigger goals with larger "numbers". Now some people are more vocal than others but the beauty of any aspect of the sport of climbing is that the sky is the limit and you decide when to throw in the towel.

Yes, I am "goal oriented" and actively chasing higher number in all mediums of climbing but not for notoriety or a rep. I think its fun to push myself to the limits of my ability and also to help other partners push their limits/numbers. With that said, I never let the pursuit of numbers cloud the other important reasons why I climb such as kicking it with friends, seeing new places and meeting new people.

 

[Terminal_Gravity]

I'm glad that starting this thread started so many positive comments and I agree with the collective attitude. It took experienceing some of the negative aspects of number chasing for me to grow up enough to concentrate on the fun. (It seems that most of you are more cogniscent of the value of self esteem versus big egos) I wish that I had the attitude that you guys do when I was younger.

As Will eluded to, climbing long relatively hard routes in reasonable form can be very personnally rewarding - and therefore fun. However, any pushing into new personal arenas can be equally rewarding. In August I free soloed The Exum on the Grand Teton in a day. I had never free soloed any thing more than a couple of pitches long and had never climbed in the Tetons. I had one of the best times of my life. Clean rock, spectacular views, great exposure no encumberance from ropes or gear and all that at 5.5. I highly recommend it.

Thanks for all the responses.