Rodchester

"When Michael Moore asked Charlton Heston why other countries with high levels of gun ownership, like Canada and Switzerland, didn't have the same high rates of gun related deaths Heston replied that those countries didn't have the same "mixed ethnicity" problems as the US." Hahahahaha. Come on man. Switzlerland has soo many ethnicities, and Canada does as well. However, neither have anywhere NEAR the gun ownership in quantity or quality. The problem is in comparison. We can't campare Canadd with the US, or US with france...etc. There are no easy answers. [ 11-03-2002, 03:08 AM: Message edited by: Rodchester ]

rbw1996: Do you know of any OR cases that actually went to jury on products liability for climbing equipment? Just curious...also, any othem reported. Also has OR adopted Restatement (secoond) Torts 520 and 523? Most states have adopted 520 and 523. (Remember 520 and 523 are not climbing specific, but usually deal with heights, fire, and water) I have done research in OR on climbing specific accidents and have found nothing that I can recall. It was about a year ago. (I haven't done a jury verdict searches though, if I can get some fee search time that is a great way to see what makes it to the jury but does not get appealled). The thing is, when business/commercial attorneys and insurance companies advise on coverage issues theory are extremely careful. They always recommend coverage for the worst case scenarios, triggering more coverge than is often needed (for many reasons, not the least of which is underestimating is legal malpractice). Always tell your clients the worst case scenario. CYA. Any attorneys out there that know of case law on point from any jurisdiction, I would REALLY appreciate the citation. I have begun to keep a library on point.

Mattp: I agree generally. But I strongly believe that climbing (and SCUBA) is an abnormally dangerous activity (within the Restatement as I discussed above) and that anyone that participates accepts the risk. As such there is, and needs to be, a per se bar to suit....for negligence, including products liability actions. I do agree that 30% for attorneys is no big deal. Most people only hear about the million dollar awards, not about the risks involved, the funds the attorney must put up in order to bring and maintain the suit, or the suits that just plain tank out, neting nothing for the attorney. Funny thing is, when pressed most dfefense attorney s agree that 30% is no big deal. If they all thought it was a get risk quick scam they would all be doing it.

This is a better place for this topic. Though I do not believe that Erden has any intentions of seeking $$$ through the legal system. Someone said something about the freemarket taking care of problems. I often believe it is an effective way of addrssing problems. Keep in mind that many on both the right and left consider the tort system an active part of the free market system. Not in the sense of generating capital for plaintiff or thier lawyers, but in the sense that it is a tool used get corporations to behave properly and make products that are safe. Its not pefecxt but it does work.

Figger Eight: If you mean could Erden have a case...the plain answer is no. The court s would not consider Erden to have been harmed. If you mean could Kropp have a case...the answer is pretty much no. Two legal theories could be used as a basis fo suit. First, that Erden did something wrong (negligence theory) and second that the biner manufacturer produced a defective product (products liability theory). Niether of these would get to the jury for various reasons. The highest hurdle being what attorney's call a "per se" bar to suit. Not to get into this in to much boaring legal detail, but here goes: In Wash (and most states) we have adopted what is called Restatement (Torts) Second section 520 and 523. Under 520, I believe that climbing is what is termed an Abnormally Dangerous Activity (these usually involve heights, fire, or water). If one participates in an abnormaly dangerous activity knowingly (surely Kropp knew of the dangers of climbing) then he is found to have accepted the risks under 523. The is what is called a "per se" bar to suit....in otherwords there is no liability. There are some minor excepts, fraud, duress, and extremely unusual situations may be argued to over come 523. I've never really found any cases that do so. This is certainly not one to do so. Suits involving climbing are very rare and are almost universally thrown out by the bench (judge). Some suits are settled on what the insurance companies call nuisance amounts (just make it go away) or for a cost of defense amount. This is the quick and dirty and is not meant to be legal advice to anyone, just my reading of the law. I'm just a climber.

Dr. Nil wrote: "However, be aware that carrying out an investigation yourself, including selecting investigator/laboratory, may legally work in your disfavor, and I strongly advise against it. I think that you should ask AAC and/or UIAA for advice on how to proceed, not necessarily carrying out the investigation. This is because they are simply the appropriate authorities in the area." What is this supposed to mean? Are you saying that a private individual may incur some type of legal liability for carrying out an investigation? If you are...well...you just plain wrong. If you meant something else maybe explain yourself. I see no legal liability basis at all. While the AAC and the like certainly have experience in the matter, thay are not any form of a legal authority. They are simply a 501 ©(3) non-profit organization. So is greenpeace, they are not any form of legal authority. Maybe I have misunderstood your statement. If so please explain. Keep up the good work Erden.....

[ 10-25-2002, 12:24 PM: Message edited by: Rodchester ]

Paco: I may have you covered. I have a pair of Silvretta 400s and a pair of simple and fairly lightweight Hagans. They are what I would call an expedition ski. Roughly 170cm in length. I have used them for a few seasons of moderate use. I do like them...but I am in the process of updating to a more ski oriented set up. (As opposed to an approach focus). Long story...I have new skis already and I am trying to pick up some Silvretta 500 bindings from a buddy. If I get them I will not need my old set up...if not I will need the bindings. Can you wait about a few weeks? I also would have to think of a price. Skis and binding are both in good shape and I'll throw in the skins too. This was not the top of the line Hagan at the time but one of the better ones. It is light. Also, what size is your foot? It does matter because the bindings are sized. Send me a PM.

AMERICAN CLIMBING TEAM MAKES FIRST ASCENT OF TIBET’S SEPU KANGRI (22,82 FEET) DURING SNOW STORM LHASA, TIBET - A seven-member team of mountaineers from the United States were successful in making the first ascent of the highly coveted Mount Sepu Kangri in the Nyangchen Tanglha Himalaya Mountains. Expedition Leader and renowned ski mountaineer, Mark Newcomb (Victor, ID) and Carlos Buhler (Bozeman, MT), a veteran of twenty-five Himalayan expeditions, reached the 22,821 foot summit at 10:00 AM, October 2nd during a fierce snow storm. "Sepu's weather has been wild and unpredictable throughout our entire expedition. When we left our high camp for the summit, the skies were clear, but by 8:00 AM, we were hit with a 'full-conditions' storm," explains Newcomb. Buhler adds, "When we reached the summit plateau, our situation was growing more serious by the minute. We were caught in heavy cloud and wind driven snow. We knew that our descent was going to be tedious andrisky". Despite the difficult conditions and poor visibility, Newcomb and Buhler arrived back at their 20,830 foot Camp 3 by 2:00 PM. The monsoon weather, which lasted longer than expected this season, brought high winds, and serious avalanche conditions to the area earlier in the climb. Despite the demanding conditions, all team members reached Camp 2 (19,200 feet) or higher on Sepu, using state-of-the-art, ski-mountaineering equipment to ascend between Camps 1 (17,700 feet) and 3. The team members were; Carina Osteberg (Victor, ID); Kate Clayton (Telluride, CO); Frank Pickell (Boulder, CO); Jordan Campbell (Moab, UT); and renowned adventure photographer, Ace Kvale (Telluride, CO). Kvale, a veteran of numerous ski-mountaineering expeditions to the world’s great ranges, explained, "We chose skis as the method to rapidly ascend the critical glacier terrain between Camps 1 and Camp 3, and to get us off the mountain quickly. In the end, our strategy worked.” Well known British mountaineers, Chris Bonington and Charles Clarke, first explored the Sepu Kangri massif in 1996. They led two subsequent attempts on the mountain; the first in 1997 and the second in 1998. In the second expedition, 2 members of their team reached the Southwest Shoulder of the mountain but were forced to turn back in a storm about 500 vertical feet from the summit. In their book, “Tibet's Secret Mountain, The Triumph of Sepu Kangri”, Bonington and Clarke document their 16 year relationship with the elusive and difficult peak. In retrospect, Bonington describes Sepu Kangri as perhaps, for him, a "Last Great Climb". The Sepu Kangri Team, sponsored by Marmot, Gore-Tex, Powder Magazine, and Texture Media, will post information and details about their ascent at www.climbsepu.com after the team returns to the United States later this month. [ 10-23-2002, 10:11 PM: Message edited by: Rodchester ]

Cell phones, GPS, now this? Talk about extra weight, bulk, and cost. I've been around for years in the woods, back country, alpine envro and been there is some pretty bad situations. Don't need it. I'd bet the VAST majority of those that buy it are gumbys. Sure build it, sell it, not problem. But wouldn't bother with it myself.

NEW YORK (AP) -- The Outdoor Life Network is looking for candidates willing to try to climb Mount Everest as part of television reality series. The cable network is casting for "Global Extremes: Mt. Everest -- 4Runners of Adventure," a series that will culminate in an attempted climb of the world's tallest mountain. The winner of a series of challenges gets $250,000, the network said on Thursday. Before Everest, the competitors will face challenges in Africa's Kalahari Desert, in the wilderness in Borneo and in the mountains of Iceland. The network, which is running the contest with Toyota, will select 50 physically fit men and women, 21 and older, for the contest. Twelve finalists will be chosen from that pool of volunteers. [ 10-18-2002, 08:54 AM: Message edited by: Rodchester ]

"I've never had problems with rope twisting so much with a figure 8. It's all about knowing how to feed the rope and how its packed when not in use." The figure 8 does twist the rope considerably more than other belay devices. If the tuber/ATC is oriented correctly it will produce little, if any, twist in the rope. I VERY often see people not orienting the tuber/ATC correctly...when not properly oriented it will also twist the ropes, though no where near as much as the 8.

MikeAdam: Only 250 rounds of 7.62...doesn't sound like much to me. Just kidding...been there myself.

Lambone: You can "scramble" down the southwest coulior safely. caution would be as always, snow, ice, rain conditions in the coulior. No need to rap middle teton unless you wanted to get to the lower saddle without going back through Garnett canyon.

Erden & others: I agree that everestness.com sucks for not updating/editing their story based on your input. My god...you were the one belaying him. Not to mention that their writing sucks out loud. I mean just read the article. For example: "According to a climber who contacted EverestNews.com who was with Goran yesterday." Is that a sentence? No. Come on according to a climber what? God damn if you are going to post an article on a commercial site I would at least expect it to be grammatically correct. (Whatever the language). Next Sentence: "There was 4 climbers including Goran climbing together." Oh, was there? The nuns would have beaten my knuckles raw for that one. God damn, what piss poor language. If it was just a post on this site (or like site) fine. But a commercial site? Sorry about the rant. I just cannot believe they treated you like they did when they were so screwed up, both factually and grammatically. I never knew him. But I think it is safe for me to say that the climbing community will miss him. Cheers and beers to the man and his life!!! [ 10-06-2002, 12:00 AM: Message edited by: Rodchester ]

Looking for input on the use of Tua M3s as a Randonee ski...opinions...experience...etc. Will use with Silveretas Thanks in advance.

I have been trying to place an order on this site and found that the credit card order part does not work, so I sent them an e-mail (which they say is an option) and paced an order. I never did get any confirmtion back saying that the order had been received and/or filled and or shipped. Have any of you used these guys? Any idea on turn around time? Do they normally let you know the order is placed...shipped? Any input appreciated.

Why not try the 555, at this price they are a steal. Easy Go 555

I had one MSR canistyer fail on me...scared the shit out of me actually. Otherwise as long as I do not have to melt snow, the pocket rocket is my choice.

quote: quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by b-rock: It's my responsibility to make sure I don't get taken hostage? Hmmmm. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- yes, as in, perhaps you should consider planning your climbing trip in Alaska, NOT in Chechnya... They were in Nepal....not Chechnya. Are you trying to say nepal and China have an ongoing border dispute or something?

BD - Moonlight I have used this headlamp for a few months and like it alot. Very comfortable, lightweight, long lasting battery, no maintenence problems as of yet, simple, directional aiming of the beam (unlike Tikka), etc. It has four LEDs so you seem to get a bit more light than the Tikka. I have used the Tikka and also like it. I have never used the P-Tec but would bve concerned with maintanence. Let us know what you go with and why. Good luck... [ 09-30-2002, 09:49 AM: Message edited by: Rodchester ]

I have used sympatex for years. Myself and a couple of my friends got a deal on bibs made from sympatex about five years...maybe six years ago. I found them to be more breathable than regular goretex (No experience with the new shit, XCR) but not so much so that I praised the stuff. It is my understanding that it is not as susectable to getting "clogged up", so to speak, by salt in human sweat. Apparently goretex does have a tendancy to get clogged up with the salt in human sweat and sympatex does not. I'm no chemist, so don't quote me on that. My overall impressions of the membrane are mostly positive, though as other shave said, nothing breaths so wel that you won't get wet.

"But I think you failed to fully explore the crux of the issue. Yes, crowds tend to change our behavior, but because they are exactly that, crowds, and not because climbers become naturally elitist or take self-reliance to extremes." Bingo...I agree totally. I ahve not read the article yet, but i will. Another commetnt... "Liberty Ridge is a committing route, especially in deteriorating weather. Proposing that a local with experience on the route or with local weather might have been able to offer life-saving advice is a big, big, presumption and insults the victims, it seems to me." I assume he is refering to the group that got three killed on Lib Ridge this year? I know one "local" very experienced and strong climber that was there (when the OR State team) was climbing. She was solo in a day, she passed them and didn't think much of them, they seemed fine and she was concerned about deteriorating weather effect5ing herself. I know I need to read the artcile to fully comment, just some thoughts.

If you go to DuBois (and youshould) also party at the Rustic Pine. Best bar I have been to in Wyoming. Breakfast at the Cowboy...mmmm mmmm mmmm.

Gannet is a cool mountain with its major challenge being its remoteness. I have done it from the east (Trail Lake TR - 50 miles round trip) and from the west (Elkhart Park TR - 40+ miles roundtrip). I suggest doing a traverse from west to east. If not, I suggest doing it from the west. It is 15 miles from the TR to the trail junction (w/Indian basin trail) at the beginning of Titcomb Basin. Near Island Lake. Roughly four more miles up through Titcomb Basin and then over Bonney/Dinwoody Pass). Some camp in the basin. However, I think this makes for too long of a summit day. At the pass there are camp sites with rock rings. However, water can be a problem here. I recommend that you carry over, cross Dinwoody Glacier. There are GREAT campsites below Gooseneck Pinnacle that will put you in great position to do the route. (This is assuming you'll be doing the Gooseneck Route?) Dos: Go light, approach from the west, camp as high and close as possible. Don'ts: Go heavy, approach from the east, camp in titcomb basin as you "high" camp, take advice from those at the "outdoor store" in Pinedale. You really don't need a guide if you are competant in mountain travel. The only real danger or obstacle is the bergshrund. It can be turned on the L or the R and often has a bomber bridge on it. Go in August, late August is best. The first week in Sept can be great (less crowds). Snow stays in the range until at LEAST mid summer. If you still want a guide try Jackson Hole Mountain Guides and Exum guides. Both have web pages. You can PM me if you want. I have been in there quite a few times and done the traverse too, which I highly recommend...and it is not any more difficlut than doing the standard trip. Good luck.