Zenolith

that guy was messing with natural selection. if i was there i would've beat him up too.

rodent dog, all that smog down there is shrinking your brain. get yourself to cleaner air and then resume normal cognition.

yes, it is impressive isn't it! glad you were all amused. for someone like me who likes puns and those things that read the same forward and reverseward, it is a special day. for those who think it's meaningless in the grander scheme, touche, but then, so are you.

...will be seen if you look at your digital watch at 20:02 today. noone has seen such a thing for 1001 years and noone will ever see anything like it again. whoever hits their 2002nd post st that moment, or smokes their 2002nd bongload of the day gets a special prize (from erik). 20:02 20/02 2002

tex, i heartily urinate on you, your whole state, and the politicians you produce from a great height. i hope you come back soon and be my rope gun. i'm in, but i must say that i'd rather ski than climb at flagstone any day. hmmm, maybe i'll go snag the first descent of hydrotube!!

Anyone been out there lately and know how the 11 o or high noon are? Is all the rock covered? Anyone want to meet us there? We're going to ski the crater if the climbing isn't good.

I think we should vote on the featured member. And have a debate between the finalists.

Republicans announced today that they are changing their emblem from an elephant to a condom because it more clearly reflects their party's political stance. A condom stands up to inflation, halts production, discourages cooperation, protects a bunch of pricks, and gives one a sense of security while screwing others.

Osama bin Laden found a bottle on the beach and picked it up. Suddenly, a female genie rose from the bottle and with a smile said, "Master, may I grant you one wish?" "Infidel, don't you know who I am? I need nothing from a lowly woman," barked bin Laden. The genie pleaded, "But master, I must grant you a wish or I will be returned to this bottle forever." Osama thought a moment. Then, grumbling about the inconvenience of it all, he relented. "OK, OK, I want wake up with three white, American women in my bed in the morning. I have plans for them." Giving the genie a cold glare, he growled, "Now, be gone!" The genie, annoyed, said "So be it!" and disappeared back into the bottle. The next morning, Bin Laden woke up in bed with Lorena Bobbitt, Tonya Harding, and Hillary Clinton. His penis was gone, his leg was broken and he had no health insurance.

A bit more background that will horrify anyone with the patience to read it. I have sources for all of the claims I am about to make. Just ask. The Fee Demo program is being implemented jointly by the USFS and the American Recreation Coalition (ARC). Who are they? RV clubs, RV dealers, boating clubs and dealers, etc, here's a partial list; Bass ProShopsBerkley Inc.BOAT/U.S.Brunswick CorporationThe Coleman CompanyDelaware North CompaniesThe Dial CorpFleetwood EnterprisesForever Living ProductsGaylord Entertainment CompanyHarley-Davidson, Inc.Huffy CorporationJohnson Worldwide AssociatesKOAL.L. BeanOutboard Marine CorporationOutdoor Resorts of AmericaREI<-write and tell them they suck!!Snowbird Ski and Summer ResortTimes Mirror MagazinesWalt Disney Attractions What are these corporations interests in public lands? The ARC and USFS have signed a contract that, in part, establishes the "Challenger Cost-Share Agreement", which is "a non-profit organization that strives to catalyze public/private partnerships to enhance and protect outdoor recreational opportunities and the resources upon which such experiences take place." I don't see climbers represented on that list, but we are paying a disproportionate amount of the cost for this program. We tend to recreate in Wilderness Areas but these corporations that are helping the USFS to charge us to enter these WAs are going to want something eventually. If they are paying the USFS's bills they are going to get it. Congress is being asked to consider rewriting the endangered species act and the wilderness act has no more authority that the ESA. That, partially, is why Wild Wilderness calls the Fee Demo program the thin edge of the wedge that is driving the Disenyfication of public lands.

quote: Originally posted by specialed: I heard they can't really ticket you unless they catch you in person. So its not a real ticket unless they catch you returning to your car at the trailhead. Is that true? No, that's not true. Here's why, "There is a lot of case law on this subject now and it provides precedent for judges to rule against any exception that requires the LEO to prove that you were recreating. The judge jhamaker refers to said that **he didn't think the intent of the language was to require the LEO to establish proof** (Although in that same case "Govt. vs Siart" the LEO used a dash-mounted video camera to record the lic. plate and the ensuing interaction between the officer, driver and her passenger who were returning to their car). That means that the exceptions (eg. work, religious observance, etc) are placed under the discretionary powers of the LEOs themselves."

Its true that if you park >1/4 mile from a sign you can't be cited, but they solve that by signing every parkable space near a TH. There is a lot of case law on this subject now and it provides precedent for judges to rule against any exception that requires the LEO to prove that you were recreating. The judge jhamaker refers to said that he didn't think the intent of the language was to require the LEO to establish proof (Although in that same case "Govt. vs Siart the LEO used a dash-mounted video camera to record the lic. plate and the ensuing interaction between the officer, driver and her passenger who were returning to their car). That means that the exceptions (eg. work, religious observance, etc) are placed under the discretionary powers of the LEOs themselves. I don't know of any place in my local mtns where I can find a parking place that is not signed. If I need to ride a bike to the NF I would need 3 days to do a one day climb. Moreover, I can see the day coming when every entrance to a NF has a toll gate like NPs do. So far that won't work since you can't be charged for driving thru a NF on a state hwy... Finding ways to avoid paying the $5 is beside the point of the essay though. At some places the FS is just trying to make a buck when they do NOTHING to the trail or TH. I'm happy to donate for solar toilets or the like, but I want to have a choice. At Pete's Pile, a tiny crag near Mt Hood the FS put a Fee Demo sign near the TH when the trail was made by foot traffic, protected from erosion by volunteers from Hood River and the crag itself is signed with hand-carved signs which warn where the chossy rock is.

A little essay I wrote. Might be a bit esoteric for some readers. It begins; I do not know of a free society, past or present. I consider a free society one in which freedom is accessible to everyone and I define freedom like Thoreau; one is free if they can excersise their own moral sense (but not a lack thereof). One of the things I love to do the most involves a climb to the summit of some remote peak where (if I can stand to sit there) I sit and feel things that very few other people will ever feel. It is no overstatement to say that while I cling with human claws to a knife-edge ridge with the wind in my face and a thousand feet of air below my feet I feel a reverence and a humbling smallness that I have never felt anywhere else. The experience in its entirety is spiritual for me. It is a lonely state often made more so because I like to do it alone. It is a pilgrimage of sorts that allows me to let all the extraneousness of life fall away leaving only the ?essential facts of life?. Imagine then that I am often required by a new ?rule? to pay for this experience. Congress has allowed the US Forest Service to charge me five dollars every time I park my car near a trail. On some peaks I must pay fifteen dollars to go above 10,000 feet. Needless to say I can not stand being charged by mankind to see God. Such an imposition is immoral in the deepest sense. It is as if the police have come into my church and demanded that I pay for my sacrament. Perhaps the most essential part of my moral sense is my free access to those experiences that bring me the deepest kind of understanding (enlightenment, if you will). No doubt I endure other indignities to have these experiences but at least I could previously feel that once I left the trail that I was in my church all alone. I can no longer get that feeling so easily and, I?m afraid, the Forest Service has made my cathedrals into Disneyland. Yes, I feel that my connection to the cosmos is now blocked by a sign that demands money. This ?Fee Demonstration Program? is still not a law in the technical sense and I have written impassioned letters to my representatives and the president telling them how much the idea offends me. Little good it will do me because every six months since 1998 the Forest Service has gone to Congress with the numbers of permits sold and used them as ?evidence? that the public is willing to pay (even though you can be cited and fined for not paying). I feel I have no recourse and that I am a slave in some sense to a system that I believe is irresponsible and immoral. When I think of it (not all the time of course) I feel extremely angry and trapped. I don?t know of any other wilderness area where you are charged simply for access. In many places you can be charged for mandatory rescue insurance, transportation, etc. but these are charges for goods and services that cost money to produce. There aren?t that many wild places left where people can go to experience things that humankind had no part in producing and I believe that even if you never go to these places that there is something about the mere existence of wild places that maintains intact some part of the original animal nature of humankind. What could be less natural than being forced under rule of law to pay to walk in the woods? What if Thoreau was charged fifty cents to watch the ants at Walden? If he were he could not have been confronting the ?essential facts of life? but would rather have been confronting the seedy greediness of humankind. I can?t imagine (for myself) how I could be made to feel less free than to be charged to sit up on a mountain wondering how long its been there and what forces willed it to be there. I can?t give you five smelly one dollar bills to breathe the incense of the firs after a rain and to sit on that snowy ridge wondering if that wind is a caress or a thrashing. Not less could I give you money for the trees and mountains that are not yours or mine because to do so would be to admit that there is no place beyond your reach. And that, is a lie I will not be enslaved to.

Are we playing name that butt? I think that one is icegirl's.

How dare you guys speak that way about GW!! He's our president and its not his fault that he's retarded. Remember that roadless olicy that seemed like a done deal? It got an all time record of public comments in favor and the Bush sent it back for another comment period. It still got overwhelming support so now they are watering it down to mean nothing. The latest thing is they want to give the discretion to the FS Chief about whether to allow roading and logging in roadless areas. Aren't these _public_ lands? BTW did you get your trail park pass yet? Yes, it seems like monkeywrenching might become necessary again.

Peter,The 700 estimate referred to was a PARTIAL estimate as is indicated in this AP articlewith yesterday's date; "The bombing hit all the cities and large swaths of countryside, and AP reporters visited many of these areas to gather data on civilian casualties. Their reporting and other reliable counts -- by no means complete -- in the months since then suggest a civilian death toll ranging from 500 to 600". The same article says that Herold lowered his estimate but it is still not as low as 700. Notably he is the ONLY one who has yet completed an estimate of casualties. His estimate was based on reports of casualties reported in the Western press. "In some cases, such dispatches became the basis for research. A University of New Hampshire economist, Marc Herold, in December cited news reports in arriving at a total of up to 5,000 civilian dead. He has since revised the figures downward to between 3,100 and 3,800". Other counts were significantly lower. The Cambridge, Mass.-based Project on Defence Alternatives, a private think tank that studies defence strategies, estimates the number to the end of December at 1,000 to 1,300. The study was based on selected western media and discounted any reports based on Taliban figures.

MATT B wrote, "I have a problem but I want to face it. My name is Matt and I I need help. About 3 years ago I moved from Yosemite, got a job, got a girlfriend and got a kayak. Is there a cure for me" It appears that your face has been stolen. Two questions for you; Do you arrange your own schedule and is she hot? As far as the kayak goes; is spring boating takeas away from spring climbing, yes, you've got a problem. Kayaks are dangerous, you could drown.

Mattp, I was referring to the damage to infrastructure, etc. I don't think that carpet bombing the country was necessary and to hear that people that were already in a bad way are being killed, maimed, cut off from hope, etc is narrowminded and shortsighted. This type of action represents the view expressed by someone in this thread to the effect of "...as long as they don't affect life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness here in the USA". I don't believe in social Darwinism and I think that compassion is a capacity that separates human beings from other animals. The idea that the elite of the human race are somehow meant to rise to the top and stay there at the expense of the "suffering class", "working poor", "third world", etc. makes me sick. Yes, I am glad that I am not them, but I have dedicated much of my time, career objectives, money, etc. to solving the problems of the self-obsessed West. Sometimes people suggest (as an idiotic rhetorical tool) that people who voice similar views should sell their gear and give it to the poor or whatever. Climbing keeps me motivated, inspired, and healthy and I am operating on a personal system of ethics that allows me to be true to my beliefs AND remain happy. You don't really think that King George and co. decided to start an unofficial and brutal war under duress do you? Yes, their backs may have been against the wall but they are leaders and I think they would have been supported by a greater percentage of the public if they had ONLY bombed radio towers, airports and such and then mounted a counterinsurgency campaign or something else. I think most people know that the reason we fight from the air is that we don't have to see what we've done. I know this is unrealistic but if I could decide who should declare and fight wars I would have it put to a majority vote; if it looses, there's no war. If it wins, all those in favor, go fight and the rest work on building bombs, jets, homeland security, paying war taxes, etc. Such a system would hear, not "these colors don't bleed" but rather, "give peace a chance".

Is BURP a woosie?

Wow, there's a real BURP? And you've made 4 posts!

Yes, I am proud of the Guest/Lurkers for coming out of the closet. If any of you are still reading this and not coming forward please don't be afraid. We are here for you. Just register and come here and say, "I have a problem but I want to face it. My name is X and I need help." You don't need to be clever or funny just come out with a troll and begin to feel the love. Why do you people need to log in and out? I'm always logged in.

Mattp,You asked, "But just what the hell were we supposed to do?" Get Osama and his group (What is Saddam doing today?). My opinion rests on one thing; It is immoral to kill a lot of innocents in response to the killing of innocents. It is even worse to lie about it ("It never happened"). The killing of innocents MAY happen with any effective solution, but if so those deaths should be acknowledged as unintentional and appropriate remorse should be shown. "Politically, our government had to do something dramatic, both so that they could tell the voters that they had some control over the situation and so that we could say to the world that you can't just destroy the trade towers without some consequences". I don't think a government should act on rage or bloodlust. Such a reaction is as indicative of a "fundamentalist" worldview as the destruction of the towers. "[T]he killing has at least for now stopped". No, it hasn't. They may not be Americans dying, but they are humans.

Fairweather, I don't think there is any "rightful" reason for the government to limit where the press can go or what they can report on in a free society, at least not one that is fighting for "freedoms" like freedom of the press. You are right, the story told in the press will always be crafted into a "product" that the public will buy. That is my point. The source for each of the examples in my post is listed above each example. Many of those examples (and others that I did not post) come from Western news sources including the NY Times, Washington Post, Agence France-Presse, The Gaurdian, etc. I realize you think these organizations are too liberal to believe but I can only say that calling them inaccurate b/c you think they are liberal (I don't think they are) is more than a little paranoid. NONE of those reports come from al-Jezeera (although, there again, you would have to show why (evidence) you think al-Jezeera is not trustworthy in order to make a respectable case for such an accusation).

Yeah, I'm really pissed about this fee demo thing. Here's a website that has compiled all the legal stuff -transcripts, rulings, etc- pertaining to the fee demo: http://www.antifee.bizhosting.com/ If you get a lawyer, point them to that site; its a gold mine for someone who is going to argue against this. If you decide to defend yourself and want help doing research I'll volunteer. I'm not a lawyer; I dropped out of law school. Its a hateful profession.

I misspoke there are two reasons more to be in the forest without a permit. "Health reasons or any other purpose other than a recreational activity." Theoretically then, you could argue that you were there to protest the fee demo itself. If being there to protest is your purpose for the visit, you are exempt. Check this out: http://www.freeourforests.org/COE.html