Zenolith

the 10th no workie for me. the 11th does tho.

Matt, you make some good points (as does the Dr). You ask, "If some archeological wonder were discovered in North Bend somewhere, wouldn?t climbers respect a closure of the area if the closure was narrowly drawn and clearly intended to preserve that specific site? What if there was a very rare three-toed black-necked pigeon colony found on the cliffs at Fugs Wall in Frenchmen?s Coulee and the State came out and said: OK to climb in other areas, but leave this one alone? Wouldn?t even the most strident combatants over there most likely recognize that they should accept this?" Yes, most of us would respect such closures. But there are people out there who shoot spotted owls and throw rocks at raptor nests and I think the reason they do it is because they feel cut out of the process, disempowered, etc. I am suggesting that recomendations need not always be for a ban right from the start, especially without comment from all user groups. (BTW, I am a working environmentalist and I do have some experience with this. In my experience an outright ban does not work as well as many other options.) "In what I have seen in this thread so far, it appears you have little to disagree with about what Professor Larson wrote, yet you seem bent on an argument." Do I need to disagree by a certain factor in order not to raise your ire? I disagree enough to want to voice it, so what? "Your last quote from him shows that they identified and cataloged a unique habitat that may not have been previously identified and inventoried." No, they didn't, or at least that's not in the full report. They made a comparative study of the climbed and non-climbed areas (as well as studies of the presence and behavior of flora and fauna, which I have no gripe with) and decided to recomend a ban based on the "news" that climbed areas have a less vital ecological community. "In the initial post it was stated that he recommended banning climbing in certain ?protected? areas along the escarpment. I saw nothing recommending closure of popular and already-existing climbing areas, and no indication that even a large portion of the escarpment should be closed." In the full report they mention that unclimbed areas are unclimbed because they are not of interest to climbers. I can't imagine that they would close undamaged areas that they don't feel are at risk. In the full report I read there is no ban recomended, but they do say this, "The analysis of damage to trees caused by climbers showed that 10x more wounds of various types on cliffs exposed to climbers than cliffs that are not used for climbing. Nearly 30% of large individuals and nearly 40% of saplings showed signs of damage on climbed cliffs as opposed to around 4% for the unclimbed cliffs. What is worse, these estimates do not include trees simply removed by climbers. If the tree density data are combined with the inventory of damage, it becomes clear that cliffs of the Niagara Escarpment that are exposed to climbing disturbance will eventually become useless from the point of view of environmental research and monitoring." All I am asking is, "Does a ban follow from that?" I mean, here is proof that some climbers are idiots, but if you called a meeting of climbers and other users and showed them what a rare place this is and asked for their help in encouraging people not to cut limbs and rap off of trees, build trails and use them, etc. I bet you would do more for the place (and environmentalism) in the long run. Also, some people are going to read this claim --> ("cliffs of the Niagara Escarpment that are exposed to climbing disturbance will eventually become useless from the point of view of environmental research and monitoring") and think the scientists just want a neato research area all to themselves. Does the phrase "federal land grab" ring any bells? I'm all in favor of the feds grabbing all they can but I know that it pisses people off when they are denied access. "Do you think that someone who has spent twenty years studying ecology wants to get involved in a discussion of whether or not dolphins have it made because they can play and fuck more than humans?" No, and he doesn't have to. He can respond without using high school mock trial tricks to establish authority and ignore those things he is not interested in. "Are you sure he would want to debate science with people who are hostile to his ideas before they even know what he really has to say?" Yes, I think since he came on this site of his own free will, he must. And I think his science is impeccable, nothing to debate there, it is the gereralized ban mentioned in the first post that I thing should be debated. "If Professor Larson is willing to participate in a discussion here, can we discuss and perhaps debate real issues and leave the rhetoric aside?" That was exactly my recomendation to him that you took offense to.

I read Dr Larson's whole paper and this is the paragraph that should have been in the first post (mtngoat didn't have it yet though); "In samples obtained by the random positioning of plots, age distributions from all sites were similar (Figure 4.2). Most cliffs had the inverse J shape to the age distributions for ring counts and estimate ages that one would expect for [Figure 4.2] presettlement forest. At two southern sites (Rock Chapel and Grimsby) no current recruitment was found. Expect for this, recruitment was very apparent and old trees were found at all sites. Trees to 1032 years were reported in Larson and Kelly (1991) but since that time maximum ages of 1653 years have been reported (Larson et al 1994; Larson and Kelly 1995). The results clearly showed that cliffs of the Niagara Escarpment, including sites near Milton, (and in agreement with earlier studies on the Milton outlier) had a completely unexpected character: namely that the least-disturbed and most ancient forest ecosystem east of the Rocky Mountains was present on the exposed cliffs. These results had broad implications not only for the future management of the escarpment, but also for the interpretation of the other components of the flora and fauna. If the forest tree cover of the cliffs is presettlement (and more or less uniformly so from south to north) then, all of the understory and underlying geomorphological processes that operate on the cliffs are largely controlled by natural rather than by human influences. In other words, the results suggested that the entire escarpment represented a complete presettlement forest, not just old trees." Those are some very old trees and this is truly a unique forest. I would not climb on these cliffs if I was told about this first. I KNOW that if you banned climbing there however, that some of my less reverent bretheren would rap in there at night and carve their initials on those trees. Seems like a study of the anarchic nature of climbers might be a good supplementary study (you did profess an interdisciplinary approach didn't you Dr.?).

OK Professor, here's some questions to start with. First, you showed that climbing harms cliff ecosystems based on the fact that this activity decreases biomass and possibly biodiversity. That seems obvious to all of us and some of us resent that your study implies that this is unique. Most of us seem to agree that if a certain cliff ecosystem (or its key organisms) is (are) threatened that we as climbers should voluntarily back off. As you know, walking across the desert or more so, building a road so that you can get to the cliff to make your study, is even more damaging to an ecosystem. So, what does your study show that is NOT already obvious? Second, are you basing your recomendation to ban climbing at the studied cliff based only on the ecological dynamics of it? Did you consider the impacts to other areas if this area is closed down? Did you think about the harm you might do to the environmental movement as a whole if you declare that climbing is at odds with the environment and recomend a ban rather that recomending that the authorities work with climbers to lower their impact? Lastly, acting like you need to wait for us to cool down before you respond and mentioning how "pissed off" some of us are is a juvenile rhetorical tool and I am calling bullshit. Establishing yourself as the voice of reason and we as the irrational neanderthalic climbers is not going to work with most of us. Quite a few of us are academics, a few are environmentalists, and some of us are smart anyway. Know your audience.

I got a little freaked out when Fairweather agreed with me -had to check myself. Lest anyone think I'm not a rabid greenie allow me to qualify. First, I believe in the Endangered Species Act but I think it is poorly written because it cops out by not making any judgement over what to save first (we can't save them all unfortunately). It is supposed to protect ecosystems but does nothing close because it does not give any preference to key species and does not mandate study of what species are most vital. Second, my understanding of humans as natural creatures tells me that we need to believe in what we're doing in regards to the environment in order to make our efforts successful in the long run. In my personal experience climbers are environmentally inclined (even if they subscribe to another ideology on the surface). Perhaps the biggest driver of environmental opinion and action comes from our aesthetic ideals for nature. Climbing is part of that or we would not stand in awe of a mountain or rock face. Therefore, if we place climbers at odds with the environment (as this study does) we risk changing climber's (and the public's) perception of climbing from one of respect for nature to a haughty abhorrence of it. Third, I think too many people, right and left, subscribe blindly to an ideology and would follow it off a cliff if it led there. These scientists illustrate how environmentalists tend to do that by saying (or at least insinuating) "Climbing is harming lichen, so maybe they should ban it". Hearing Cheney say that it is not reasonable to base a national energy policy on conservation is just as narrowminded. The fallacy in both statements is that neither one asks what serves the greater good of people AND the rest of nature. You can't fight for one over the other because the sound of one hand clapping is....

DUDES!! This was meant to be a serious thread about my hero Mark Twight and you guys made it degenerate into spray. I am furieux!! I just got back from my sleep deprivation training and I am more than a little grumpy. I think I will go call "1-800-GET-DRUNK". Hee-Hee, Mark Twight is so funny. Yo, Be Extreme!

I was skiing along the other day on the way back from an extreme route when I began to talk about my hero, Mark Twight. I was not surprised to learn that my partner was a fan too. We both had good action suits on and were moving very fast but we began to sing Slayer lyrics to make us feel hardcore like Twight. Anyhoo, we decided then and there that we should chair a Mark Twight fan club. Everyone knows that Mark Twight is the best and he is sooo extreme so I think you will all want to join. I emailed Mark Twight 6 times today and when he gets back to me then I'll tell you if he will lead us on an club-christening climb or something. Ok, so, climb hard and Be Extreme!! Post script: What is your favorite peice of Mark Twight advice? Mine is the one about putting your Dromedary filled with hot water in your bag to increase the thermal gradient to push moisture out of your clothes. Bingo!

This sounds like a job for Self-Proclaimed Environmental Ethicist Man!! As someone pointed out, and my handy carrying-capacity gauge agrees, there is a lot of rock out there and until someone can tell me that these lichens and vegetation, in this particular place, are endangered then I don't see a problem. Humans and all other animals have always altered their environment. Studies like this one are part of the problem actually because they come from a mindset that allows people to think that we are not natural creatures (ie. we could avoid altering our environment by changing our behavior), this is not the case. Saying that "science now shows that climbing is harmful to the environment" is RIDICKEROUS and stupid. Climbing is a basic physiological response, but science? Now that crap is harmful to the environment!! Sounds like a couple of idiots chose a silly PhD thesis. The questions we should be asking are; Should we climb somewhere else or at a different time? If we ban climbing here will we cause climbers to more heavily ipact other areas? Etc. In my view climbers should use slings and other leaver hardware that leaves the least impact possible. Climbing has been an environmentally harmless activity for a long time until the en mass proliferation of bolts, chalk and those dorky boulderers who put maxi pads on the heather. We should place intense peer pressure on those who would make climbing look like desert motocross or we'll find ourselves on the wrong side of the environmental debate in no time at all.

hmmm, two things i know. there has NEVER been a documented case of a wolf killing a human, but there have been a lot of cases of cougars doing so. does that say something about ferocity (which is subjective anyway.)? like bears cougars tend to run if they get the chance but will sometimes "lie in wait" for a human. wolves never do that. wolves can only fight with their jaws but a cougar will slap first and then chew.

hope you people did the cave route while you were there. tis real neato.

I love the smell of Napalm in the morning.

Dorthy was a cool chick. "If we laid all the people at this party end to end we'd have...."?

waitaminute, why can erik edit matt a's post. is that a trick? to the original post i say, i accel at everything below 5.5. i will spank any 5.5 face or crack with equal reckless abandon. once, i tried heinous cling on tr. i spanked the little crack, i spanked the little finger pockets, but the slapping dyno to the sloping little ledge? yes, it whipped me like that bad little boy that i am. I made up this joke and haven't gotten enough praise for my cleverness yet: what do bolts and condoms have incommon? (they both protect a bunch of pricks.)

terry, those are called "tasty bite" and yep, they are. trouble is, your bag'll stink for a long time... one of my new favorites is sardines in mustard sauce. sounds gross but it is really desirable after a lot of exertion. also like to fry the salami on my lid w/ cheese on it.

thanks jon, i couldn't find that one. and erik, yes, yes i do want those screws.

yes, erik, this has been discussed before, but i forgot and those searches are irritating. in the new bd catalog they have the "ice line" and the feller i asked at bd said its a 1/2 rope. i wondered if it could also be clipped into one piece (a screw on a pure ice climb) and he said, "those ropes are new and i haven't tried them yet" which convinced me that he was an idiot, so i spat and hung up. i would like to know if there is a 1/2 rope which offers enough stretch to be safely clipped to one peice as is usually done on ice climbs. the "ice line" is 8.1, 8 falls, 4.9kN(55kg), 10% stretch, and pretty light at 42g/m. because of the low impact force i wonder if it might be reasonable to do an entire ice climb with both ropes cliped to each screw. and then i wondered to myself, "what is the advantage to that, huh?" does anyone have an opinion?

Standing on the moon, got no cobwebs on my shoes,Standing on the moon, I'm feeling so alone and blue. See the gulf of Mexico, as tiny as a tear.The coast of California must be somewhere over here.Over here. Standing on the moon, I see the battle rage below,Standing on the moon, I see the soldiers come and go. There's a metal flag beside me, someone planted long ago.Old Glory standing stiffly, crimson, white and indigo.Old Glory standing stiffly, crimson, white and indigo.Indigo. I see all of South East Asia, I can see El Salvador.I hear the cries of children, and other songs of war. It's like a mighty melody, that rings out from the sky.Standing here upon the moon,I watch it all roll by, all roll by, all roll by, all roll by. Standing on the moon, I see a shadow on the sun.Standing on the moon, the stars go fading one by on. I can hear a cry of victory, another of defeat.A scrap of age-old lullaby, down some forgotten street. Standing on the moon, where talk is cheap and vision true.Standing on the moon, but I would rater be with you. Somewhere in San Francisco, on a back porch in July.Just looking up to heaven at this crescent in the sky.In the sky. Standing on the moon, with nothing left to do.A lovely view of heaven, but I'd rather be with you.A lovely view of heaven, but I'd rather be with you.Be with you, be with you, be with you, be with you.Rather be with you, be with you, be with you, be with you.

Went to see the captain, strangest I could find,Laid my proposition down, laid it on the line.I won't slave for beggar's pay, likewise gold and jewels,But I would slave to learn the way to sink your ship of fools. Ship of fools on a cruel sea, ship of fools sail away from me.It was later than I thought when I first believed you,Now I cannot share your laughter, ship of fools. Saw your first ship sink and drown, from rockin' of the boat,And all that could not sink or swim was just left there to float.I won't leave you drifting down, but woh it makes me wild,With thirty years upon my head to have you call me child. Ship of fools on a cruel sea, ship of fools sail away from me.It was later than I thought when I first believed you,Now I cannot share your laughter, ship of fools. The bottles stand as empty, as they were filled before.Time there was and plenty, but from that cup no more.Though I could not caution all, I still might warn a few:Don't lend your hand to raise no flag atop no ship of fools. Ship of fools on a cruel sea, ship of fools sail away from me.It was later than I thought, when I first believed you,Now I cannot share your laughter, ship of fools. It was later than I thought when I first believed you,Now I cannot share your laughter, ship of fools.

climbed 11:00 last Sat with imorris, pete, and patty. Was fun. Good conditions but poor pro due to the unconsolidated snow on the n. side. tr and pics later.

yes, they are doing business the french way it seems. you just need to know how to deal with them. they got on the ball pretty quick once i started calling instead of emailing. my shipping on skis and poles was $25, that's 5 days longer and $25 cheaper than skis from T-P.

I have some 4.o wiregate biners which are really nice for my purposes. they have a gate opening of 29mm, rated to 26kN, and weigh 49 gm. These are my favorite wire biners. I have some jc wires too which are good but not as easy to use with gloves on. i have their caranut tool too which is nice but i think i've seen one made by some other company now. I have some knob handle screws which are basically the same as smiley's. good stuff i think. some people say they are no good but they give "too cheap" as their only reason which i think is stupid.

standard (no tail clip). they're in great shape. $40 +shipping. approx. 190cm. [ 03-19-2002: Message edited by: Zenolith ]

at 99g they are too heavy to carry for contingencies which is what i usually carry pins for (on the rare occasion that i do). two 1/8" kbs is still less than half that weight and are more versatile IMO. mostly tho, i don't need them as much as some other things.

this is probably old news but i just heard about it. if you have android leashes look here: http://www.bdel.com/alpinism/icetools_android_replace.html i emailed the warrantee dept and told them i had two and they mailed me new ones (just from the clip down).

i bought some atomic tourguide superlight skis from them recently. i also bought poles and the bill (incl shipping) was 340 euros (USD 300). they didn't have the poles i wanted and it took them a week to tell me that, so i called them to ask what was up and they said the order had already shipped. it shipped by french post and then fed ex so it took about 8 days to get here. i would reccomend this shop if you can't find what you need at barrabes (whom i have used) or T-P (whom i have used twice). they have a vast selection and you can buy out of season gear anytime of the year. some advice; call in your order (at midnight pst), make sure they have your stuff in stock and ask when it will ship. you'll get better results that way. Nathalie (the only guy i dealt with) spoke perfect english. when my package arrived there were some really nice Ti leki makalu poles inside that cost 13 euros more than the ones i was charged for. i look forward to rapping off them in an epic retreat someday.