Alex

which just goes to show how much you know about anything at all, since the candidates didnt in fact know the questions before the debate. duh. go back to shagging sheep and ranting about how lame we all are since we cant climb 5.13 like you, but stay out of politics!

everytime I see a pic of Hood in the summer, I think "what a shitpile!" everytime I see a pic of Hood in the winter, I think "damn, yo, i am gunna climb that!"

Actually, there is a very faint path through the woods on climbers right of the streambed, however its hard to find in the dark and you're probably better off going up the streambed your first time up to the base of the route.

Carter was voted in based on his being a "common man with decent morals" - a "peanut farmer". Yes he didnt have that much experience, and was baptised by fire. Carter wasnt a great president, but sheeet look at him now! The man's on fire! Dukakis was a tool. Clinton was voted in because he was a rock star, and the elder Bush, while much more experienced, was on the tail end of 12 years of GOP in the White House. People wanted change. Thats one reason Bush was elected in 2000, people just wanted change. Bush seemed moderate even to most Dems, and so people werent particular enthralled with Gore, and were just like "what the hey?" I think 2004 is very different. I have spoken to very few people who are voting Bush, though there are some that I work with. Most people are like "what were we thinking??" I heard and later watched the debate. I thought Bush held his own against a vastly more prepared Kerry, which means that he didnt leave the audience gaping at how much of an idiot he was. But I think Kerry presented himself in a much better light than Bush. Interestingly, Bush himself used to be quite a good debater. He's gotten much worse over time, perhaps because he's just not practiced at it. Maybe he isnt "Hungry like a fuckin younger me." -eminem

and you define significant number as what, 2?

I think the answer is that misinformation is still a very powerful weapon for both camps. Manipulating the media anyway possible is powerful for both Dems and GOP. Poll results at this point are going to show what the paymaster wants them to. As an aside, I think the polls after the debate will be a heckuva lot more interesting!

Ryland (and everyone else), wearing my moderator hat () I would suggest you and or Matt take jon up on his offer, which he posted on page 6 of this thread. "So in an effort to be more proactive I'm going to invite everyone to send Tim and I an email to tell us what you like and don't like about the website, what your thoughts about banning and moderation are, as well as anything else your little hearts desire to talk about. Please provide possible solutions to things you see wrong. For now you can send them to (climb) @ cascadeclimbers DAT com and in the subject put "Suggestion Box".

Ryland, actually, you quoted some stuff from Matt and then asked "I wish I knew who wrote this, so I could confront them!" I actually don't know who wrote what you quoted (it wasnt me [this time! ]), but its probable that the person who wrote that to Matt was not the person who banned Matt.

A really good point Stefan!

Ryland, why not just ask Matt L. who the moderator was? Then post that name here? He isnt opposed to sharing PMs with you, he shouldnt have any problem telling you who it was? Funny how "moderators" are not entitled to their own opinions on someone else's behavior Clearly, since we are all so damn out of control, you are treading on thin ice just by posting your own opinion on the matter.

great pic! http://www.cs.washington.edu/homes/gyngve/Pride/zsloan.JPG

agree wholeheartedly yes, so the story goes. The interesting thing to me was that Robbins had made an armchair judgement from the ground about the legitimacy of the ascent and its style, and had set out to erase it based on his own personal ethics and style. At the time it wasnt even an issue as to whether such an ascent was "legal" or not (or what have you), it was just a purely ethical debate on what "fair means" really meant in Yosemite big wall climbing. Robbins changed his mind because once on the route he found the climbing was in fact difficult and interesting, classic even. But it took actual experience with the medium to change his mind.

The real problem is that climbers cannot, in fact, self-regulate. Its not new, Hardings routes were "erased" by Robbins who argued the same style and ethical issues we argue today. If we cannot self-regulate, we collectively have to adopt or adhere to *some* standard that defines what's "acceptable". (sorry, I mean this loosely: its really applied *to* us and other users by land managers). It seems that the Wilderness Act has become that standard? It does not necessarily prohibit bolting, only the use of motorized equipment to do so.

I might like to join this hit parade, who's the boss?

Its noon Sat, I have the rest of the weekend free cragging, alpine, whaterever, PM me.

Yes. Whats your guess then?

I think Direct East Buttress only has maybe 25 bolts total.

There are actually a few topos online (one's a to-scale PDF) that give precise numbers.

Just averages. On a coulple of the pitches there are none, actually. Def not a sporto clip up like Condorphamine.

There are not 12 bolts per pitch! On the first 5 pitches there are 22 bolts. The next pitches average something like 3 bolts per pitch to pitch 11, which has something like 8. After that, there are maybe less than 2 bolts per pitch not including anchors to the top of 18. The final pitches have more, maybe like 8 bolts per pitch?

Actually, Infinite Bliss is mostly on granite. The first (what?) 7 or so pitches are on really(!) nice rock but low angle, then there are a few pitches of band of ex38 stuff, then alot more granite. The middle mountain (pitch 16,17,18) isnt as clean as the lower polished slabs on the first 8 pitches or so.

no, but if you cant keep your agendas out of "partner wanted" ads, then you shouldnt be posting here. let the dude climb what he wants and make up his own mind. <edit>sorry, Squid, to answer your question, I thought the Adams discussion was already in Access, and the Fee Demo is on the climbing board? I would probably move the Fee Demo thing to Access sometime after its run its course in a few days or weeks or whatever. There are already good threads on Infinite Bliss in Access forum as well.</edit>

Continue beating this horse here in Spray!

I removed this discussion to Spray.