Alex

From the top of Offline/Online, its a half-to-full-pitch of unprotected or "maybe protected" mid-fifth friction to get to the trees (the Mohawk). But since the decent for these routes and Lost Charms is to rap either Online or Offline, you'd just be coming back down again in another 15 minutes. I don't think many people do that last pitch, its quire unremarkable compared to the pitches below. There is no walk off a la Snow Creek Wall. Currently, the second station on Offline is missing rings, so I left a biner, but you might want to take some extra rings or quicklinks for some of these stations. Alex

R&D route on Icicle Buttress in Leavenworth? Alex

I dont think anyone would object, unless the ledge interfered with a B-lay on a popular route like Godzilla. People set up regularly on both upper and lower wall at Index. Cheers! Alex

Raustin, Online has not changed at all since I led it about 4 years ago. We got lost on the approach because I was too impatient and had thought I missed the climbers path. In order to avoid doing what we did (an hour bushwack), just continue up the road from the parking lot until you cross a stream where you can see slabs up the streambed. Continue another hundred feet and the climbers trail is on the left. There is no snow on the approach and the slabs were dry (until it started raining). For online, I found green, yellow aliens and #2 camalot useful. Alex

At the risk of inciting "The Tong", my point is that even though the Spray is superficially isolated, does that warrant posts that have nothing to do with the site, its mission, the majority of the poster's interests? On ALL other BBSs I visit, the posts, even though sometimes rife with flames, are always relevant to some central topic. My point is, why post to a BBS, when you can use IRC, muds, Zone, other chat rooms, other 'net resources to PRIVATELY chat and try to get over the boredom of the day? Why make this public for everyone? I just find it detracts from the site. Dru, if you supplied me with an email address, I'd love to take this offline and we could talk about it alot more in depth. Alex

As a regular here, I am beginning to get annoyed at the silly posts that clutter the landscape. There is spray, people flaming others for strongly felt opinions, and then there is "spray", which is completely worthless banter about nothing climbing related. I know I will get flamed for making my own (unpopular) opinion heard about this subject yet again, but I think its really time that those people who want to "chat" about nothing in particular just take it somewhere else, like IRC, a mud, the MSN Zone, whereEVER. Am I a minority on this? Can we just get rid of the Spray directory? Sorry to be so controversial. Alex [This message has been edited by Alex (edited 04-20-2001).]

ha! Betty Bowers is a better Christian than you, Dru!

I was up there last weekend. The gate is still closed at Mntneers Creek. The snow is really soft on the approach, but the trail is pretty well beaten down to Colchuck Lake and also most of the way to Nada Lake, so you dont really need floatation. Without a real hard freeze at night, the snow in the couloirs is just going to be slop. Good skiing though! Alex

Mike, this is a good solution, thanks for taking the iniative. I don't think it matters really where the IRC server is set up, I think alot of people will find it useful (me too!) to trade real time information, idle chat, and serve as an appropriate venue for THE BATTLE CAGE!! Is it up now or when will it be?

Kevin, I'm not sure how that would work?? This isnt about the type of climbing at any particular area as much as the issue at the center: placing bolts that damage the resource. Trad climbers don't typically place bolts and basically "leave no trace", so don't see how you could argue for the sport climbing only thing.... besides, we already have that, in gyms. Alex

For nierman and others interested in this route in Leavenworth's Icicle Canyon, here are the details on the recent addition to Condor Buttress. The HYPE: this route was hyped as a "7 pitch 10b route", which makes it sound quite serious. It's not. I have not seen the original topo, so this route description is purely my own. Approach: park in a pullout just past Bridge Creek CG and find the trail to Bathtub Dome, a steep affair that gains over 1000 feet straight up the hill to Bathtub Dome. Proceed past Bathtub another 15 minutes to Condor Buttress. Route: The route is on the right hand side of Condor Buttress, where 3 closely spaced bolt lines climb up an initial slab. Only one goes further than 80 feet. p1. climb an unremarkable slab to chains. 80' 5.7 p2. climb rightward for a few bolts and then into an awkward corner (a few 5.8 moves) to chains. 80' p3. climb 4th class to chains. 80' p4. climb up another slabby section to trui-bolt anchor and chains, 5.6 80' p5. climb up and through an interesting 5.9 friction/opposition pitch to jugs and chains. 80' p6. tough moves off the belay lead to brief rest and then one-move wonder 10a move. p7. 5.4 to top. Descent: rap route Worth it? Go judge for yourself. Alex

bolting is not a new source of controversy. Suffice to say that everyone has their opinion, and no ones opinion can be taken for "the bottom line". Jordan's statement is just that; these are the rules that he observes when someone asks him the ethical question. Mitch observes different rules. I learned to climb at the Gunks, and bolt was a four letter word there, so when I moved West I REFUSED to climb as Smith for more than a year because bolts were unethincal. We all have our beliefs. The real bottom line is that without consensus and (dare I say the word? dare I...?) REGULATION that reflects that consensus, the issue will never be resolved to everyones liking. Regulation does not necessarily equate to Park/Forest Service intervention: even now most backcountry use is self-regulation, acceptance of policy by the users of the backcountry. There will always be incidents of abuse or people who dont care and just do whatever they want. Fact is, if you permit people to bolt indescriminately, they will, and people will climb their routes. If I put a hut at Asgaard Pass, you would use it! If I put a gondola into Cascade Pass and made it a ski area, you would ski there! Its about keeping the "wild" in wilderness. Alex

yeah but you could say the same thing about a hooker

Francois, this has already had some airtime, check it out at http://www.cascadeclimbers.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000054.html Alex

I dont know the difference between the two Asolos, most likely warmth. But between the Koflachs and Asolos, the Koflachs have more rocker to the sole and will walk better than the Asolos. Is there a particular reason you are going with plastics? Might I suggest two alternatives to the approach you are taking: 1) go leather. Nothing wrong with leather booths on Rainier. 2) buy used plastics. Second Bounce in Fremont and many other used shops in the Seattle area carry used plastics, and you can get them at bargain prices at Marmot in Bellevue, and at the REI garage sales. Cheers, Alex

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http://www.bettybowers.com/

http://www.realchange.org/bushjr.htm

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you are absolutely right. I'll go away now. [This message has been edited by Alex (edited 04-12-2001).]

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Yes, it is a simple physics problem. I do not know the equation, but here are some conversion factors to start you off: 1 pound force = 4.45 newtons 1 newton = 0.225 pounds force 1 kilonewton = 225 pounds force You would also have to calculate acceleration due to gravity, and also how much energy is absorbed due to rope stretch. One key component is how much rope is actually payed out at the time of a fall, and what is the rope elongation? I remember Petzl publishing some pretty detailed information on this in of of their catalogues. Alex

Greg, in my experience you can do one of three things: 1) donate to politically vocal lobbies 2) donate to behind-the-scenes movers 3) donate to radical groups All three depend on your personal agenda. Examples of all three include: 1) Wilderness Society, Sierra Club, various PIRGs, Greenpeace 2) The Nature Conservancy 3) Sea Shepards, EarthFirst, and the like In my experience, the Nature Conservancy has always been the most professional, least invasive outfit, but they are also not nearly as powerful a political lobby as some of the others, and will not have as great an effect on the Bush budget. [This message has been edited by Alex (edited 04-12-2001).]