rocky_joe

If I wasn't having knee surgery on Monday I'd be there for sure. Good luck.

Guy Lacelle, the prolific ice climber, was killed by in an avalanche. He will be sorely missed. RIP. http://www.climbing.com/news/hotflashes/guy_lacelle_killed_in_avalanche/ http://www.alpinist.com/doc/web09f/newswire-guy-lacelle-dies?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+alpinist%2FEFcn+(Alpinist+Newswires)

fantastic photos!

hate has not been explained. and i suppose i see how your training method could be related and I also see that it could very well be effective for a smart disciplined boulderer who listens to their body-- in my experience these climbers are few and far between, so a training method as intense as your often results in tendon injuries.

you hate RuMR too? RuMR we have something in common! Let's form a club!

I think this could easily be labeled as periodization. Over the course of one month climbing nothing but v4 boulder problems one will definitely get stronger quick and as I have experienced it only takes about 2 weeks for pure power to stagnate (without increase in difficulty. The final 2 weeks of the month (assuming they continued to climb v4 and not harder) would then see the climber climbing more moves at the v4 difficulty than at the beginning of the month. This could see the climber doing so many more moves that in fact their workouts would become power-endurance. I think this method of training could be very useful for many climbers, however I don't see how it is in the same school as the bulgarian lifters.

why the hate? I didn't mean (most posts) to sound like an asshole. I really just felt that you were wrong. I have kept on responding because by and large you have made ludicrous unsubstantiated claims. I realize as well that I often spoke in far too many absolutes, that was not my intention. I meant to offer a real contradiction to your theory and tried to support it with relevant information. I see some good points in what you tried to say; for a climber whose sole focus is bouldering you make a very relevant argument. However, your argument was never clearly specified and I am still not sure how the propesed schedules you gave us are reflective of your original post; please make these connections for us (me). Apart from not presenting a clearly specified argument I really felt that your argument was not presented to the correct audience; a bunch of mountaineers and alpine climbers aren't really gonna take to a pure power style work out (maybe RuMR liked it, but even that I don't know.) I still don't think that the workout you presented is inline with the thoughts that were evident in your first post, despite the presented workouts being legitimate ways to become a stronger boulderer. But, if you could demonstrate how your proposed method is directly inline with the train hard all the time mantra used by the bulgarians i would love to see where you are coming from.

So, straying away from the tendon argument, I've noticed something. I went back a pages or three and re-read your example work out plan. the plan you wrote does not appear to endorse the "climb as hard as you can every time you climb" mantra. I think you need to make sure that we all understand exactly what you are trying to say, because here is how I (and i would guess many others) understand your proposed philosophy. An example schedule for clarity (for a v6 climber). Day 1 Climb V5/6 as many times as you can until your exhausted. Day 2 Climb V5/6 as many times as you can until your exhausted. Day 3 Climb V5/6 as many times as you can until your exhausted. Day 4 Climb V5/6 as many times as you can until your exhausted. Day 5 Climb V5/6 as many times as you can until your exhausted. etc. this is the idea most of your earlier posts conjure for those who read them. Quite different from what you proposed for the V4 Squamish climber. the schedule you proposed, while not standard periodization, is not far from what many climbers do; a lumping together of three of the four non-rest phases: hypertrophy, power endurance, endurance. Your schedule seemed very reasonable, except I would encourage some caution with the fingerboarding routine, doubling the number of hangs to failure after only one week might be a bit much.

nope, julian is a dude.

so, kimmo. tell me, please, why it is so ridiculous that tendons (which are non-vascular--IMPORTANT!) would take up to 4 years to respond and strengthen because of additional stress. Also, saying that it takes them 4 years to respond to additional stress is not even close to the same as saying that theyare "looking at the calendar" waiting for year 4. What it really says is that it takes 4 years for the tendon to become significantly stronger; it is in fact growing, but tendon strength is not measured solely by their volume.

yes.

this has ceased to be worth arguing. you are obviously not going to do anything but read into only that which supports your opinion. all the articles you posted go on to mention that there is no conclusive evidence from the study that tendon strength is increased. the studies you post are ambiguous at best and therefor easily manipulated to say what you want them to.

will you please stop posting articles that in no way support what you are wanting to say?

again, no conclusions are drawn, specifically, about the actual gains in strength of the tendons. please learn to read.

the article you posted does not conclusively support short term tendon strengthening.

acute increases in tendon size have not conclusively been shown to yield significant effects on strength and ability to cope with additional stress over the short run (ie less than a year.) http://www.engin.umich.edu/class/bme456/ligten/ligten.htm

i stand corrected. I should have written, in the first post, that the vast majority of climbers....

To this discussion, how hard either of us climb is irrelevant because we are not the ones who are creating new theories, rather we are arguing the merits of opposing training philosophies. I happen to think yours is wrong while you cannot seem to muster a single reason that periodization is not a) effective and b) better than your side of the argument. I made up nothing about what you said, I simply read what you wrote and replied. In regard to the part of the conversation related to movement. You keep coming back to the point that many (hell, all) boulder problems have on definitive crux. I AGREE. But the fact that to send the problem requires a climber to learn that one specific movement and get it "dialed" in order to send is not equatable to the repetitive motion performed by weight lifters (again say a bench press specialist.) This is so, because once you have mastered the crux move of a boulder problem (especially one outside) it is typical to move on to another problem that will undoubtedly have an entirely different move for its crux (while some moves may be similar no two moves outside are exactly the same.) The difference (if you are having trouble inferring it) is that the bench presser will continue to bench press and build that one specific group of muscles and reinforce the muscle memory of the one specific movement, while the climber will learn a move and then continue on to the mastery of another move entirely. Like John said early in the thread, comparing weight lifting to climbing is like comparing apples to slugs. Next, I never claimed that no climber ever could climb as hard as they want all the time and not get injured, again if you and your buddies did that, great, congrats, you beat the odds. But the real fact is that pulling too hard too often will, in all likelihood, result in a blown tendon. If you don't believe me check out the Dr. 8a section of 8a.nu and see for yourself how many tendon related over-use (read: too much hard climbing) injuries are suffered by climbers across the board and around the globe. Finally, tendons are strong, but that does not make them fragile. Tendons take a lot of time (up to 4 years, conservatively) to increase in strength (after which they will continue, albeit slowly) to get stronger. But yes, it usually takes tendons that long to adapt to higher stress levels. This is seen in sports other that climbing (see: jumper's knee, runner's knee, tennis elbow, ACL/LCL/MCL tears.) All these happen in athletes because tendons are NOT strong enough to handle above normal stress levels despite the surrounding muscle having the capacity to handle it. Mike Anderson gives an even longer number for the time it takes for tendons to strenthen: please don't butcher this post to bad when you respond.

Kimmo, you are clinical. first of all, does it matter how hard I climb? Whether I (or anyone for that matter) climb 5.9 or 5.14 is irrelevant to the conversation. What I have done is explain why your theory is bunk and been straight up in telling you why you are wrong. You really do love semantics, as we all have seen, however you are quite awful at playing the game. You continually fail to choose, out of a paragraph, the operative word and the complete idea. example: in the last post you decided to reiterate your thoughts that because many (in fact most) boulder problems have one crux move that rock climbing must therefor be one repetitive motion that all climbers must learn. Apart from this being utter rubbish on it's own there is a logical fallacy within. If many (all or most) boulder problems are centered on one move; therefor making climbing about one move, then a v4 climber should be able to climb ALL v4s because they have mastered the "v4" move. I am not making this claim (I feel compelled to say this because you are the only one here who might think I am,) rather this is the direct line of logic throughout all your previous posts. second, I never once claimed to be an expert, I merely attempted to add to the conversation (on the defense of periodization) by bringing up the FACT that tendon strengthening CAN take up to 4 YEARS. If you don't believe me feel free to look at any number of climbing specific training guides or better yet ask someone who would know (a physical therapist or practicing sports medicine doctor). About you and your friends crushing as hard as you could all the time when you started...great. Glad it worked for you and that you didn't suffer a blown tendon. My experience has, however been quite different...my overtraining (too much intense bouldering) last winter left me with a broken finger. Needless to say, I have since read up on a lot of training methods for injury prevention and all the best lit out there suggests some form of periodization. Finally, tendons are fragile, they are slow to strengthen and slower to heal. Periodization (theoretically) minimizes the chance of over-stressing tendons and thus reduces injuries.

Except that you are wrong again. Just because you crux out on one move in a route or problem does not mean that all climbing (as your language suggests) boils down to one move. Gaining muscle memory for one move does not encapsulate climbing. Typically it goes like this: try a climb crux out work crux repeat send try a new route crux out (new move) work new route repeat send for weightlifters (say a benchpresser) benchpress benchpress benchpress benchpress benchpress benchpress benchpress see the difference?

kimmo, you're an idiot. Not one person has even suggested they thought you were telling climbers to begin power lifting. READING COMPREHENSION KIMMO!!! But, really you ought to re-read what I originally wrote. You also ought to consult PT and ask about how long it can take tendons to gain strength, it's longer than you think. You want to know why? It is, like I said earlier, because tendons are non-vascular (they don't get blood.) Muscles are able to heal (read: strengthen) faster because they receive blood flow; since tendons do not strengthening them is a much more tenuous, precise and longer process. So I say again. If ANY climber simply climbs as hard as they can all the time (follows the idea of the belgian power-lifters) they WILL destroy their tendons because the tendons can simply NOT handle the constant stress. There is a reason that all literature about training to climb hard suggests some form of periodization. *note: kimmo, read this post and my last post at least 3x aloud each so that you understand what I wrote.

So I stopped reading after the first 3/4 page, but am hoping I can contribute something new to the conversation. Kimmo, you're wrong for all the reasons listed above: climbing works more systems, climbing works more muscles, climbing is higher stress, but there is one reason (that I think is the most important) that hasn't been pointed out. Climbing stresses tendons. Yes, weight lifting stresses tendons, but does not even come close to matching the stress placed on them by climbing, especially in the fingers. Tendons are fragile. Tendons are non-vascular. Tendons take up to 4 years (see Rock Prodigy) to begin to strengthen (respond to the stress of climbing.) After 4 years, tendons continue to strengthen, but the pace in which they gain strength is still much slower than muscle. For this reason we need to use at least some form of periodization in our training routines. Periodization focuses on strengthening different systems. Endurance training improves the repetitive strength of your muscles. Power Endurance attempts to increase one's lactate threshold. Hypertrophy strengthens the all important tendons by isolating muscle training immediately proximal to them. Finally rest (the most difficult to observe) allows all the systems to recover fully, thus becoming stronger. If climbers were to observe the same idea your weightlifting example eludes to, we would surely all be aid climbers within two months. That is a world I don't want to live in.

Seeing as I will be out until mid to late March I am wondering if the North Face is usually climbable that late in the season. The majority of TRs here and around the web are from Nov-Jan but given that I am just hoping that there are a bunch of shy climbers getting up it in march who have abstained from spraying about their awesomeness. Please feel free to share your early spring NF experiences/info here.

thanks for the well wishes. I'll probably won't be climbing again til the end of march. so i'm really stoked for the spring season.

south side is in. go for it, just watch out for avi conditions and temps.