tvashtarkatena

No one stated (well, OK, I didn't read the entire thread) that Israel is out to exterminate the Palestinians. Let's stick with what people actually posted, mkay? I stated that Israel is using the Nazi tactic of creating a ghetto, and that is indisputable, given facts we seem to all agree on. JoshK, do you not agree that Israel has created a cordoned off ghetto where access to supplies is either very restricted or cut off entirely, and that this has been the case for quite some years now? How is this different than what the Nazis did, in any way other than severity, a difference I've already acknowledged? This is not a case of "both share equal blame". There is blame on both sides, but Israel is overwhelmingly more powerful than the Palestinians. They have largely framed the situation that exists today.

The fact that Walmart is surviving better than other businesses (I don't know about your Whole Foods assertion, nor do I know how 'green' Whole Foods really is), but yours is but a single example, against which there are many, many counter examples. There will always be a low culture segment in America with no vision of the future that acts without social conscience. Fortunately, they don't speak for the country as a whole. Yes, I think this country is a better one than you do, despite all of the idiotic things we've done in recent years, that is true. Perhaps it's because my parents lived through and fought in WWII, or that I've lived to see us orbit Saturn and drive on Mars, or...I don't know. I may well be wrong, and part of me thinks I am. We'll see. Well spoken Pat. However, I've noticed that as gas prices have dropped to under $1.70 a gallon, all kinds of assholes are climbing back into their Suburbans and huge SUVs that they'd parked when gasoline was approaching $4.00. They don't give a f* that WE all have to breath the fumes, or that they are burning gas 3 times faster than necessary so as to reduce the next generations reserves, and that we have our military go running over to all kinds of shitassed sandboxes with the net result of lots of dead people just to ensure that we have gas for strategic reasons. It's true that there will always be assholes who don't give a shit, but what's heartening is all the folks who've changed their driving (and other habits) for good, even though gas prices have gone down. JayB likes to speak for the lower class and the third world factory worker; two constituencies he does not belong to and has little personal experience with, while labeling his opponents as 'elitists'. I never fail to get a kick out of it. It's not about Xing being able to afford a stereo (most of the factory dorms where the lions share of new Chinese factory workers live are not air conditioned, nor is it an option, BTW) or Joe Sixpack being able to afford that big screen plasma TV; it's about taking responsibility for the consequenses of one's actions, and about being a good, long term steward of the rare, habitable little piece of astroturf we find ourselves on. Sustainability has to happen sometime, either gradually and voluntarily and or by force through catastrophe. JayB argues for the latter under the 'consume now, fuck the future' guise. I prefer the former under the 'let's all consider the impact of our actions' philosophy. He represents clinging to the past, hence the vote for McCain et al, I represent trying to make a better future. He sees human beings as units of production and consumption; I see them as somewhat more complicated creatures. Pretty simple, really.

The guy doesn't win any fashion awards in the shirt department either. Billcoe, if you're concerned about this issue, you might consider joining and becoming active in the ACLU (ACLU.org), or at least joining their legislative action network, if you haven't already. This issue is at the very top of their national agenda, and they've won many victories to regain the right of habeaus corpus, probable cause, and due process of everyone, including these individuals. You might also consider the more than 250 Guantanamo detainees who've also been tortured and imprisoned for up to 7 years now without being charged with any crime. Yes, this is America, but you can do more about than just hoping it will change. I'm not sure what the ACLU's position is on the coming zombie apocalypse, however.

Planning another trip up there. Thanks for the invaluable observations.

My God, they're gonna have to make Humvees even WIDER?

The REI basement rocks. No crowds, either. Although the basement's been good to me, REI should stiffen it's return policy and start telling people who've used up their gear than tried to return it, or those how can't hit something with a spot of crazy glue and move on to fuck off. The basement's full of boots with 500 miles on them that 'don't fit right'. Way to many douchebags take advantage of it.

Well, there's a one sentence explanation of the mentality that keeps this conflict going and going....an eye for an eye, even if it was 36 years ago.

That sounds more like a nagging generality. Who is us? Who is them? I would say that the Palestinians and Israelis have 'joined' each other in continual violence. As for the U.S., other than supplying the Israelis and ignoring the Palestinians, I hadn't heard that we're directly involved in the conflict, and so had to make the choice to join anyone. A reciprocal, cooperative society is the only stable future for anyone, so that's the end game, the only choice, every time. It's just a matter of when, not if.

The fact that Walmart is surviving better than other businesses (I don't know about your Whole Foods assertion, nor do I know how 'green' Whole Foods really is), but yours is but a single example, against which there are many, many counter examples. There will always be a low culture segment in America with no vision of the future that acts without social conscience. Fortunately, they don't speak for the country as a whole. Yes, I think this country is a better one than you do, despite all of the idiotic things we've done in recent years, that is true. Perhaps it's because my parents lived through and fought in WWII, or that I've lived to see us orbit Saturn and drive on Mars, or...I don't know. I may well be wrong, and part of me thinks I am. We'll see.

The only problem with the title of the 'other thread' is the use of the word 'Jewish' rather than 'Israeli'. The insinuation that the Israelis have been using Nazi tactics is apropos. Israel, through internal partitioning, restricting or halting the flow of supplies, allowing settlement, and a number of other familiar actions, has created an ghetto eerily similar to those they were confined to during the Holocaust. Yes, the Jewish ghettos were worse, but the basic idea in play is the same. When the Jews in WWII fought back, we called them heroes. When the Palestinians fight back, we call them terrorists. The Hamas rocket attacks on Israel and their aim destroy that country are not justifiable, but Israel has done much to crush the life out of the Palestinians and provoke such a response. Officially, Israel claims that it will negotiate a two state system with the security conditions are acceptable to both sides, but on the ground that nation has done and continues to do everything in its power to escalate conflict. This does not resolve the Palestinians of all blame; it's factional infighting, fundamentalist wings, Arafat's ego, to name a few, have all added heat to the conflict. We shouldn't forget that Israel, however, is the 800 pound gorilla, and, as the much more powerful opponent, has by far more leverage in ending the conflict. That the conflict is somehow 'natural' and 'eternal' is uninformed cynicism, nothing more. The same kind of armchair historians said that of the Irish/British conflict. Many of the most violent conflicts in history have been followed by the closest friendships. For most of their history as neighbors, the Jews and Palestinians lived in peace with one another. The current conflict, considering their long history together, is a relatively recent one. Furthermore, the two peoples have been close to a resolution of that conflict in recent years. The U.S. continues to support Israel in no small part because it is our nuclear powered proxy in the Middle East and, in many ways, our only perceived friend in a region that, for the most part, dislikes us.

That the term 'Darwinism' is associated with pure competition is more layman's misunderstanding than hard truth. Nature is a mix of competition and cooperation; the latter plays a critical role in the survival of any given species. Cooperation in nature is much more than evolutionary symbiosis; it is also conscious decisions of species to cooperate for the common good. By way of example, six different species of African monkeys live together as one troupe; they speak each others' languages, share food, defend each other. Different species of birds have been observed warning each other of approaching raptors. And on and on. In human sociology, it's no secret that cooperative societies; those based on reciprocity, are far more stable than coercive ones; those based on threat of force. We compete in stable societies, but it is cooperation and trust that binds us together at a much higher level.

Eastern philosophies make me a bit squeemisha.

Celebrate suffering.

How do those guys manage a beard like that with no back hair? Isha mystery.

Yeah, OK, but they're mostly just black people.

The Chosen People plays Master Race.

Infinitely harder? Gee, that sounds a lot like impossible, no? Have you morphed your pre-Gore argument from 'let's wait until we've got more information' to a post-Gore 'let's wait until we can figure out what to do'? It's no surprise that 'wait', ie, do nothing, is the common theme in all your arguments. JayB & company seems to prefer to remain confused on how humanity should move forward regarding the Global Warming issue, but to me, the process, already massively underway, seems relatively simple; change perception and values and the money, innovation, and lifestyle changes will follow. Where this will take us may not be predictable, and we may fall short along the way, but I really don't see what's so confusing here. Money follows values in this country. Where is the venture capital money going these days? Green technologies. That was completely untrue 3 years ago; venture capitalists hadn't even heard of the technologies they're now ponying up millions for today. Large corporations follow the values of consumers, not the other way around. Car companies are tripping over themselves to produce greener vehicles. Did they come up with the idea? The three Rs, carbon footprint, downsizing; all are examples of effective concepts that are greening the decisions that individuals make every day. Al Gore's movie may have been as flawed as any human creation, but it certainly did the trick in spades; to expose the 'debate' for what is really was; a denial of an accelerating reality. It's interesting to note that the consequences of global warming are coming home to roost much sooner than even the most rabid proponents predicted. So much for 'waiting until we have more information'...another bullshit PR campaign to delay the inevitable for a few more quarters and elections. Finally, with regards to the idea that investment in green technologies with somehow 'bankrupt us', that is absolute, pure bullshit. Such proposed investments, whether public or private, are subject to the same cost/benefit analysis they've always been, so there is no reason to believe that some new mega-project to create a perpetually self-eating watermelon out of unobtainium will come along and destroy our economy (laughable, given that good old unregulated capitalism just imploded without any help from the sci fi writers). This, like pretty much all of the propoganda that has been shoveled our way form the GW denial crowd, is pure fantasy.

He looks more like an Oregonian. Ashland or Eugene, perhaps.

Weird. My batavian broadleaf endive survived the past two weeks uncovered. You could grow that shit on Mars. Anyone been able to attract mason bees to their place? I've had two nests made of doug fir protected under the eaves for a year now, but so far no tenants. There's plenty for them to pollinate nearby. As an aside, there is no real nutritional difference , pound for pound, between eating high fructose corn syrup, sugar, or honey. Honey production is easier on the environment than the other two, of course.

As near as I can tell from my typically exhaustive research, some drunk old guy told me one time that it's a venerable term that applies to people who sit on their ass all the time, 'burning the ass candle at both ends' so to speak.

or keep lit an ass candle in the wind.

You have sullied the name of this revolutionary and full featured social networking tool, and now you must die.

How do you think I feel?

I think that trick's called a 4:20

"If any of you...homos, say one more thing about my Facebook profile....I'll kill ya."