denalidave

Gives me a headache and is for girls or fruity men. I used to be a total beer snob, only drinking highly hopped IPAs. Now I much prefer a decent lager, aka, Modello, PBR, Rolling Rock, Ranjay or Stella. The real beer is just too much for an old fart like me. speaking of farts, the "bigger" the beer, the bigger the farts. I still like a "good" beer, but not nearly as often. I'll still pass on the Miller, Keystone, Bush, Black Label, Steel Reserve, etc. Gotta hang on to what little pride I have left. Not to mention, whatever I've eaten earlier.

SWEET photos! We dubbed it "stairway to heaven" back in the day. And, yeah, "mini Matterhorn".

Schaweet! "Moderate" is 5.11? I guess I should just give up on ever becoming even a moderate climber...

Check with Tim H (Crackman). I know his buddy decked a a few months ago but I don't think anything was broken, just some sprains, if I remember correctly. Good guy, I climbed w him at Smiff. He is pretty new to trad though. Not sure if there was another incident there.

I was wondering when this one would pop up.

God must be working another Festivus miracle cause I can actually agree with that.

Well, I learn something new everyday. I still don't see how that shows god cannot exist, whether here or in some far reaches of our unknown universe.

I never said I don't have doubts and I definitely have wrestled with the issue my entire adult life. I just think the atheist view is the same same... You can't have any doubt that there is no god whatsoever. There is no god and that is final. Is that not what atheist preach?

Please show me one data point PROOVING there is no tooth fairy. I guess that means we should all be tooth fairy agnostic? By the way, agnostic does not mean 50/50 chance either way, or that you "don't know." You could be 99.5% sure there is no god and still call yourself agnostic, because hey -- .5% is still greater than 0. You should read The God Delusion by Dawkins. If anything, it's an excellent treatise on things like agnosticism, pantheism, Spinoza's "god," and what it means to be an atheist. You dont seem to understand what being an atheist is. Technically, I suppose the tooth fairy example could be correct. However, I have had a personal experience with "God" so I don't think you are comparing apples to apples. You may disagree on what I experienced, but that just boils down to your opinion vs. what I have experienced personally. How can you take that away from someone? You can't. You can never be assured 100% I did not experience God, now can you? I think you are correct. I was under the assumption that Atheism is a believe that there is absolutely no god and no possibility of a god in all of the vastness of our universe.

As stated earlier by another poster, even science requires a degree of faith and can be manipulated to achieve the desired results. Many of our current scientific theories will tumble once we learn more, just as they have in the past. We think we have scientific proof of whatever (and often we do), yet the more we learn the more we realize how little we really know. I'm all for science but that cannot take away from what I have already personally experienced in my journey through life. I guess you should put Einstein in that category too, after all, he believed in God and thought he proved it with E=MCsquared. Correct me if I'm wrong on that one. I can't believe this, but I gotta agree with trashie as it's time for ya'll to keep on with your faith in nothingness and I in my faith in a all powerful force in our universe. Peace out. Ding, ding, I think I finally get it. Let me make sure I understand what everyone is telling me here. Now that we have science to prove all that exists in the world, there can be absolutely ZERO POSSIBILITY of a supreme being, whether it be a personal god or not? However infinitesimally small the chance there could be some sort of god, it could never co-exist with science. And, that there is in no way said god could exist because we now have science. Of course, now it all makes perfect sense. There are plenty other examples of un-explained phenomena, but that does not, in any way, shape or form, mean/prove that they can't or don't exist. Atheism appears to me to be just like all the other "religions". If your not with our un-religion, your against us. We are the only ones that are correct and the rest be damned. At least the agnostic is open, however small that chance may be, to learning something new. At least as I understand it. I believe we all create our own destinies, to a large degree, anyway. We have to deal with the hand that was dealt to us and someone/some act of nature can short change our destiny, but for the most part, it's all up to us. I'm not sure what to say about this "dead end" Rob refers to... What is the worst thing that can happen if one has a believe in a higher power and turns out wrong in the end? One dies anyway and won't know the difference. Not saying I'm hedging my bets, but if I am wrong, I won't know the difference when I'm dead anyway. However, look on the positive side of faith and what it can do. Take AA, for example. I'm not a fan of it myself, but the idea has helped many, with the power of belief in something greater than themselves. Sure, it cuts both ways with the zealots but if everyone adhered to the atheistic view, seems that would be much more of a dead end, with more apathetic people with no reason to carry on. Flame on, angry zealots.

As stated earlier by another poster, even science requires a degree of faith and can be manipulated to achieve the desired results. Many of our current scientific theories will tumble once we learn more, just as they have in the past. We think we have scientific proof of whatever (and often we do), yet the more we learn the more we realize how little we really know. I'm all for science but that cannot take away from what I have already personally experienced in my journey through life. I guess you should put Einstein in that category too, after all, he believed in God and thought he proved it with E=MCsquared. Correct me if I'm wrong on that one. I can't believe this, but I gotta agree with trashie as it's time for ya'll to keep on with your faith in nothingness and I in my faith in a all powerful force in our universe. Peace out.

Yes, I've been wrong many times when I trusted my feelings. That is much different than a life long experience of God working God's mojo in one's life. I just see a lot of irony in atheists saying they know for certain of something that cannot be ascertained, yet mock and dis anyone that has a different personal experience. Show me one data point PROOVING there is no God and that God can't/won't interact with us humans and I will consider the data. In fact, I've tried to deny God existed in my life, only to find God again and again, whether I wanted to admit it or not. I'm on no more of a dead end path than you non believers. I can accomplish just about anything I set my mind to. It's good to know I have the universe covering my back in the big picture.

Exactly. I have a lot more respect for the agnostics as they are not sure either way. That seems reasonable. But the athiest laughs and mocks the beleiver, all the while having "faith" that they know all there is to know about the workings of the universe. Or at the very least, what is not in the farther reaches of the galaxy or inner sanctum of the human soul. Seems a bit hypocritical to me.

Obviously, I aint no rocket surgeon but I'm not hedging my bets. Rather, I am relying on a force that has already proven and manifested itself in my own personal experience. You can give me all the data points, chinese proverbs, etc, but it won't change my own personal experience. Again, if you can PROVE that God is not real and never touched any human life, then it would indeed be a lie. As for you, your supposed to continue being the almighty here on CC, condemning and belittling anyone that disagrees with your "facts". You can't be wrong, ever. That seems just as delusional as the nut jobs that believe God exists.

Why not just continue to believe and pray to the God that has already proven itself to the believer? I'm of the opinion that the "proof is in the pudding". IE - there are infinite examples of those who are doing "God's work" (the nut job in the mall, for instance), but if it harms others in the end, it was the wrong god. Or at the very least, the wrong interpretation of God. On the other hand, if the results of ones faith are "good" (of benefit to society and our world at large), then the "pudding" is good and nutritious. Mother Theresa would be a rare example.

Personally, I've never been "touched" by the tooth fairy so I'm not inclined to believe in him/her. Again, it is much easier to poke fun at someone who believes other than your own line of faith/belief. Probably to help you convince yourself of the unprovable faith you are so certain does not exist in the first place? I could, on the other hand, go on and on and on of how I was touched by the divine. Sure, it could all just be an incredible string of infinite coincidences but when one looks back at all the minutia of how/when/where/what, I'm certain it has been a divine blessing. I don't just sit on my ass and expect life to unfold the way I want it. Rather, I choose to appreciate the force of the universe that can help guide & nurture me along the way. Usually things turn out much better for me when I let go of whatever it is I'm holding on to so desperately. I'm sure you know it alls will deem this as a weakness on my part, but I'm OK with that. I don't need to prove anything to anyone but myself.

Amen! God is great and beer is PROOF God loves us.

Obviously, your just another nut job cause Rob told us that his faith was broken implying that proves no god exists. Don't even question are own almighty trashie, he will smite the down with useless drivel and self grandiosity. Ever sure to get the final word in, till he changes his story and forgets to cover his tracks. Being Sunday, and we are here in church, lets take a moment to thank spralmighty trashie for allowing us to convert to his way of thinking or risk eternal ridicule, damnation and attending male gay weddings for all of eternity. (Not that there is anything wrong with that)

Being science based, why wouldn't you just conjure up your own strong beer rather than rely on some force bigger than yourself?

I call Bullshite. How can one say it takes no "faith", yet have no scientific proof (can't proof a negative)? I'm sure in your case, your right. because your mind is not open beyond your own ego (based on your persona here). You have FAITH that you are right and everyone else that believes in God is a sucker (paraphrasing). Call a spade a spade. Atheism takes believing in something you can't proof (faith by definition). "faith" is the belief in god or teachings of a religion. Since atheism don't believe in god, there is no "faith". Faith is also believing in something without proof. Atheism is about needing proof to believe the existence in god. Since none exists (short afterlife experiences and feelings about the nature of the world are not proof), we have atheism and so atheism is not faith based. belief in god requires faith because there is no evidence belief in science requires no faith. Science believes in only things that can be proved. The day that a bigfoot is put in a cage or a skeleton found, science will believe in bigfoot. A simple visit from the almighty would be enough evidence too but are we not worthy enough a occasional sleep over from Daddy? You can parse words but you are still assuming something to be true when it can't be verified. Call it faith or non-faith but it still requires a belief, even if that believe is in nothing. It is the non-faith religion for the non religious.

God is great and beer is PROOF God loves us.

Hallatraskuala! I've finally seen the light. Or darkness, depending on your point of view. Thank you almighty trashie for delightening me beyond my own stupendessness.

OK, I'm converted, trastised in the blood of spray, repentent sprayer and will now adhere to atheism because Joe Simpson climbed a mountain, fell off and never asked for God's help. DONE. THERE IS NO GOD. PERIOD. Maybe God helps people even when they deny it? Maybe God was with Joe down deep in the cold, dark crevasse? Certainly his mind was gone bonkers and susceptible to hallucinations. Just because not everyone in fox holes does not believe in God, does not eliminate the possibility of a God existing.

I call Bullshite. How can one say it takes no "faith", yet have no scientific proof (can't proof a negative)? I'm sure in your case, your right. because your mind is not open beyond your own ego (based on your persona here). You have FAITH that you are right and everyone else that believes in God is a sucker (paraphrasing). Call a spade a spade. Atheism takes believing in something you can't proof (faith by definition).

How about the Grateful Dead. I'm sorry, I just don't get it. Even if I was dead, I'm not sure I'd be grateful about it. Just sayin. Damn hippies. I'd rather be ALIVE!