Raindawg

I was explaining the "style" issue to Porter. It's true...you don't like mine and I don't like yours. Not complaining. Just stating an opinion. You are welcome to agree with us or not as you see fit. We've said nice things about you before. (Remember the whole "Alpine Buddy of the Week" fiasco?) Interesting comments coming from one of the most arrogant individuals I have ever met in 35 years of climbing. Let me explain it to you: I'm expressing one end of the spectrum...the other end of which are a whole lot of people doing things to our public resources that in my opinion are utterly unacceptable. Let the ideas on all ends and in between be expressed and debated from all angles and if there is ultimately some acceptable middle ground, so be it, otherwise the competition for ideas and action will continue. If climbers are aware of the controversy, and ignore its implications, and an area get's shut down, then they had a chance. If they aren't aware, perhaps they'll ask the question why. If you can somehow convince the public and the majority of climbers that you've got the answers to the dilemmas, then put it out there, because I haven't seen much more than a bunch of excuses from most people. Furthermore, it's not just "Dawg's way"...there are a lot of us who have been fed up with the way many "climbers" behave for a long time. It's a competition of ideas...isn't that what "democracy" is all about?

I think it’s ridiculous that passionate subjects such as “ethics”, one of the most important, and sadly most neglected topics in climbing, almost automatically get tossed into “spray” because of its volatile nature. “Spray”: the same forum that includes Kevbone’s request for your “favorite morning music”, “photos of extra-large housecats” and “I’m tired and its Monday”. First of all, YOU might have not seen a new argument, but you’re not the only guy reading this. I’ve met many people who have no idea that there is any sort of controversy about bolts, access, etc. until they were exposed to it on this site. I, for one, am intent on educating people on this issue whenever the opportunity arises. As I’ve stated in other places, I’m convinced that most new climbers have little if any environmental awareness of their practices (including permanent alterations to the rock, mountains, etc) with the exception…maybe…of picking up their garbage…but even that isn’t guaranteed. “Clip ‘n go! It’s all good!” If some long-time site users are tired of hearing about it, maybe they can just pass on by when they see the name “Raindawg” or “pope” associated with some sort of ethics topic. New readers of cc.com, however, might be exposed to such ideas for the first time. And guess what? There’s a whole lot of other “redundant” stuff going on in this site including loads of important and fascinating comments such as “ I think we should be talking about poo”….now that’s clownish. By the way, see anything clownish or clown pictures in our posts in this latest “discussion”? We expect our opinions to be drug through the dirt because they are unpopular and uncomfortable and the implications are threatening to a lot of folk’s favorite hobby and sense of fun. Even without our satirical perspective - which clearly demonstrate our disdain for a lot of what goes on - we would receive little respect as has been shown many times, no matter how polite we might begin. It’s not necessarily only the messenger….it’s certainly the message at its core. (And some of our posts present the message in ways which we think make our point in a direct and amusing, if not darn funny, way….thus the sandwiches, clowns and the classic, “Via Feratta boy”). “MattP” has tried to lecture me on style….how the “in your face” approach doesn’t work...well he can choose his own style for whatever and I’ll choose mine. Does it work?..maybe not for everyone, but I’ve been told that I’ve changed the mind of quite a few, if not at least made them aware of the controversies. By the way, if “MattP” is correct about our approach, then he should be encouraging me ‘n pope to continue the way we do because we (MattP and us) apparently don’t agree on much and we’ll have little effect. There is the whole concern, too, that The Man might be reading this site and be made aware that there is no true consensus among the “climbing community”. Good. I hope he does. Maybe it will make some climbers consider how they treat public property and how their personal hobby might be perceived by outsiders. You want to talk about improving this site?? My suggestion: move the ethical arguments, including this one, to the new Ethics Forum, in which “minx” will not be allowed to moderate (she has long shown a disinterest, lack of understanding or just plain boredom with such subjects), and eliminate the pages and pages of one line irrelevant “banter”.

I believe the fast Rainier time is certainly possible. A number of years ago, I participated in an informal race from Paradise to Camp Muir with a couple of park rangers who were known as endurance athletes (Bundy Phillips and John Day III(?)). It seems to me that Bundy made it up to Muir - running in tennis shoes as we all were - in 1 hour and 4 minutes and John was only one minute behind. I came in later and we found another "competitor" wandering around exhausted and aimless on the Muir Snowfield when we returned to Paradise. So, if the well-acclimatized Justin Merle could cut a time of even 1:20 to Muir and 2:20 to the summit and an hour to sprint down, why not?

I'd tie in with you any day Doug. I can say that although I don't know anyone who has retreated into such supreme self-righteousness as the Dawg, from what I've seen here I think his mentality borders on certifiable. On anther thread almost 2 weeks ago Don called me a boltmaster or some such thing. I found it interesting in that we'd done 4 brand new FA's that weekend and there wasn't a single bolt. Not one. The hardest was 5.11 and the longest was a 300' 5.7 done ground up. Left 4 sets of rap rings on trees to get down that one. I don't like excessive bolting, yet I don't exclude the reasonable use of bolts where there are beautiful faces that are only blank expanse of knobs. Therin we part company. He thinks Smith Rocks is a late term abortion. I like the place but don't get there much. I climbed there when we were the only folks there "back when" in 1972, you needed a raft and an extra rope if the water was high - and I like it more now (if there are not lines). There's more bolts and more people: true, but more lines as well and they are all cleaner. It's rare to stumble across a shit bolt. The bolted climbs there are great to get on. If the knobs on a cliff are so small that you cannot tie them off, I think bolts are appropriate. Like a broken record, Don uses the argument that one is permanently altering public property with the use of a bolt, yet he doesn't say shit when they are blowing up rocks and entire cliffs, and bulldozing major miles of roads permanently altering the watershed and forests: yet he can find the time and energy to endlessly rant and complain and drone on and on and on and on and on and complain more about a few small stainless studs that are inert, non-harmful to the environment, cannot be seen from even a small distance away and is easily removed. Certifiable. Raindawg/Dwayner/Don speaks: Certifiably concerned. It's like this... Change isn't always good. Some of you are bitchin' about how much Bush sucks and you might argue that you preferred Clinton or someone else, or other policies before the present administration. I, personally, saw and experienced a better day, IMHO, that many new climbers never saw, in which there was an environmental awareness that has since been compromised...that is, an awareness that any permanent alteration to the natural climbing environment should be thoughtfully considered. For a few years, when I first became enchanted with climbing, this was the cause and an inspiration to me. Climb clean as possible and leave little trace. Every permanent alteration (trail, piton or bolt] should be an ethical decision. ANYTHING WRONG WITH THAT NOTION, alleged Green-Folk??? (And yes, I recognize that not everyone was doing it back then...so what...the idea was still there.) Sport climbing (although fun, safe and with an incredibly short learning-curve that appeals to the masses), and callous rap-bolting, are the anti-thesis of this. Anything wrong with sharing that opinion? Am I an "old fogey" because some people promoted this environmentalistic ideal in the 1970's? Ever consider that clean-climbing is a great idea that should be as current as ever? Should I just accept any crap that comes along because it comes along? Those of you who call yourselves "progressives" are often the last to call B.S. when you see it...if it's "change" than it's O.K. and those who don't "go with the flow" are therefore anachronistic??? That's stupid reasoning. Good ideas are good ideas whatever the vintage. If the same green idea originated in 2007, I'd be equally enthusiastic. Some of you claim to be environmentalists but you've got a blind eye when it comes to your favorite sport because you're afraid of the implications: your cheap, dumb, unenviromental way of climbing might be ethically dubious and if found out, it could be shut down by THE MAN....Maybe it should be. The old smokescreen of masking the issue with arguments that "they're building a ski area over there, or a road in the National Park there" or "bolts are tiny li'l things" is a joke. It doesn't justify that everything short of the huge and dramatic is therefore trivial. I'm a climber. I can't solve all the world's problems. I'm concerned with a certain aspect of it, as minute as it might seem (and is). I choose my causes and I'm glad that there are people addressing some of the other important issues out there. I believe I saw a better day and things should have evolved from there. In some ways they did (clean technology such as cams, and such) but in other ways, I've seen it totally digress (e.g. indiscrimate sport-bolting). I don't need your sympathy...if I find anything pathetic or "sad", it's those who automatically accept the status quo as "all good" and anything new or different as "progress". I find it pretty sad when the ordinary modern backpacker seems to have superior environmental ethics to many a "modern" climber, the latter typically accepting the routine, gratuitous and reckless permanent alterations of the environment as the status quo and the dominant modus operandi, along with the attitude that they have a right to do whatever they want at will with public resources. In my opinion, many climbers are no better than the unthoughtful picnicker who leaves a pile of garbage in their wake....at least the paper portions of the excessive MacDonald's debris will soon disolve...unlike the metallic refuse that's routinely and thoughtlessly drilled in profusion in the public domain. Anything else you dont' understand? Any of you self-styled hippies have a problem with my environmentalism? (I never thought I'd be a bigger hippie than Off White!) - Raindawg/Dwayner/Don P.S. Despite the friction, I consider Mr. White a brother whose history overlaps with mine, Mr. Billcoe: a probable contemporary who might be fun to meet, at least for some beers, and Kevbone???????? dang dude, you ain't learned to think so much yet but we's could make a hilarious climbing video called "An Exercises be in Contrasts". PPSS: Ya. billcoe...the Smith Rocks are pretty much a "late-term abortion"....makes me wanna hurl.

Dude...you're a mess. You think you know "pope" and his committment to climbing over much of his life? You obviously don't. Your choice. You sound like you subscribe to the bogus "it's all good" philosophy. Real world says: "it ain't all good". Some of us will argue that some "routes" shouldn't be climbed, maintained, or "devloped". Have you read through all the comments on this thread??? On many threads on this site? Have you noticed that not everyone agrees? Pretty dang funny coming from a guy who below advocates: "It is a freedom that we all have the right to enjoy" Hey freedom-boy...you got spy camera's everywhere recording who's going climbing, where and when, and how much so you can determine who deserves your "respect"???? I ain't speakin' for "pope", but I know him really well, and I'm pretty sure that he's not out looking for your respect. By the way, how often does one have to climb before they're a real climber and can have the freedom to have an opinion? Big Lou ain't doin' much these days...I guess he should just shut up. Same thing with Reinhold Messner.. sit-down! And both of them probably have some pretty critical things to say about climbing. It's simple....you don't have a clue. Hey everybody! Freedom boy wants us to leave if we don't agree with him! Hey! You ain't the boss of me! When did that happen? Why can't I build a scenic picnic table in the Enchantments or have a bon-fire in the meadows at Paradise? Why can't I rap-bolt the cracks on Outer Space so it will be safer for everyone and so I won't have to carry so much gear? Why can't I chip holds to make hard climbs easier? How about chopping down a few trees in Camp 4 to build my own cabin so I won't have to camp with the hippies? Actually, I'd try to stop someone from doing any of those activities. Do not f*ck with freedom, it's real, real hard go get it back. It's your very attitude that's going to cause restrictions and closures. Sorry to break the news to you, but in the real world, you can't just do anything you want. Some of us care in ways you obviously don't and we're not going to leave or sit around when we feel things are going astray. Anarchy is for losers.

A lot of interesting commentary in this sad topic...here's some more of mine: That kind of attitude and language will keep the new ones interested! If you don't care,maybe you shouldn't be a moderator because you apparently don't understand that there are a lot of issues and competing values involved in all of this which is why some of us DO care. And you also sound like an unsophisticated potty-mouthed 14 year old going through a rebellious state complete with profusive use of the "f-bomb". Ya I would, poseur...all 83. Pretty much speaks for itself. Don't like it? Quite selling us your property at bargain prices and stop adopting our culture. I agree. Here's a site where ethical issues such as bolting, the legitimacy of sport-climbing etc. end up quickly in "spray" rather than having an ethics forum which could have been created years ago... a site where some people have been banned, admonished or abused for bringing up controversial ethical considerations (e.g. "infinite bliss", the idiotic bolts at Rap Wall, or the famous "let's refer to bolts as BLT's because THE MAN might do a search and find out that's there's controversy", or the denial of responsibility in the "Oregon Sport Caves", or the bolting of cracks, etc. Don't throw me in with those guys. Most of my "bickering" involves ethics. (See the comment above.) And some of it involves the cavalier Christian/Jew-baiting that is regularly tolerated on this site. As previously stated, ethical topics get dumped into spray. Passions come out and these important topics get thrown into the Spray-Pile with Kevbone's favorite guitar solo and what 'Bama had for lunch. I can't imagine meeting "tvashtarkatena" or any number of other foul-mouthed spray-monkeys and enjoying it. It would be worthwhile, however, just to see the little people with the big mouths behind the many small words. Nonsense. A lot of people prefer to work for a living rather than dumpster-dive. I imagine that there are many dedicated people on this site (and many more who aren't) who spend their precious free-time pursuing their passion when and as they can.

As usual, you have NO idea about what, or to whom, you are speaking, Swami. Grow up. Much to your disappointment, I migrated to the Northwest from the "hated" California because I fell in love with Mt. Rainier. By the way, I am a California colonist. You are now living in North Northern California. Drive to Ashford and make sure you tell Big Lou how much Rainier sucks. And while you're at it, find some Nisqually Indians and ask them about their "god of a mountain", for which the city of Tacoma is named. ...sucks like a cross-section of the so-called climbing "community" in general. For my first 15 years of climbing, it was really, really special...it's gotten lame, dumbed-down and stupid ever since. I still cling to the distant hope that there will someday be a renaissance of people who really care about the crags and mountains and how they're treated, and how we climb them. Speak for yourself, but not inclusively. That's your prerogative...perhaps you'll feel better about your self-esteem tomorrow. Today is the first day of the rest of your life....choose carefully.

I would climb with Don. I have nothing against him. I climb with people I dont agree with all the time. We'll make a video...as long as I can choose the music.

Doesn't really matter when we're talking ethical behavior. Climbing Prussik or Numbah 10 or any other climb 100 times wouldn't change my opinion on rap-bolting, crack-bolting or power-drilling in the wilderness. I don't care who's doing it...in my opinion, it's still wrong. Some of them. (and I disagree with your use of the term "attack". You think I'M rude and attacking??? You ever read the rest of this site???????????????? Oh....let me see....maybe....12 1/2? Probably as much as you do, "Matt P".

Oh...I guess that makes everything on a smaller scale unimportant then, eh? By the way...you've got a foul, foul mouth.

Hey MattP...are you describing yourself? Because if you're attempting to put me down, you don't have a clue about my life.

By the way, anyone who climbs "Thin Fingers" should pay their respects to the first ascensionist, Mr. Paul Boving, a Cascade rock and alpine pioneer (in his time), who put up the route around 1977 and died on it a couple of years later.

Great idea. It might better express the beauty and intensity of the experience than the usual screech and shriek. P.S. It's spelled "Newley" and I don't believe he ever recorded that particular song, which is not my favorite.....chuck.

There's plenty more! Take a look, for example, at "Numbah 10" on the Lower Town Wall... Today's Lesson: Definition: 1) one who bolts cracks; 2) one who rap-bolts.

Ask your buddy Brooke if he rap-bolted the thing. If he did, boycott it. And he apparently did, quoting here a post from Dane in 2004 quoting Brooke: "From Brooke, "This route is a bold traditional undertaking and with climbing up to 5.12b fairly technical and serious (some pitchs would probably be R rated). You will need a double set of cams to #9, triples on small units, a large selection of brass nuts, and stoppers. In these final three (short) pitches (crossing over to the south face and then back again to the west face), we placed 1 protection bolt and two stations (added on edit: these 5 bolts were done on rappel as Burbon originally impied) Our route takes the extreme south crack of the west face of the headwall (missing the whole main headwall) and ends in a wild foot & back chimney - belaying under the large visor which juts out over the west face. We did not see any evidence of rap bolting up the main headwall." Who cares whether the rap-bolting was committed on the headwall or anywhere else in the Enchantments/Wilderness area...the rotten act was committed. Read the whole volatile discussion of the topic here: Prussik Peak Rap-Bolting You don't want to "climb" from the bottom up? Go home. Maybe wind-surfing will suit you better. It's a pathetic example and now others will have to clean up the mess and even worse, some will find it acceptable and imitate it. Furthermore, let's not contribute to the pollution of the mountains by naming routes after corporate sponsors, e.g., "Team Metolius Route". At least the corn-dogs who raped the thing had the decency to call it "Der Sportsmann", after a venerable establishment in nearby Leavenworth.

Unfortunately, I's gots to agree with Drill-master Coe. What's up with the "music"???...seems to be common with these kinds of videos....you want's to say, "we's bad", but let the climbing speak for itself...the music says..."we lame and we's trying too hard to prove we ain't". Billcoe's comment reminds me of the old joke: What did the Dead-head say when the drugs wore off? Answer: "What the hell was that horrible noise????" Carry on......Raindawg

What makes you think some of these guys won't just whoop your butt??? Maybe someone should call in: BIG LOU!

How come so many of these kinds of climbing videos are accompanied by truly wretched soundtracks??? Is heinous "music" part of the scene....part of that attitude that.... "WE'RE CLIMBERS! and we're wild and crazy and reckless, hard-drinking, wild-partyin', don't-mess-with-me-and-you-can-shove-your-opinion-up-your-butt-tough-talkin', hippie-van drivin', hanging out with a bone-in-the-nose girlfriend with hairy armpits, Whillians/Burgess Brothers/Vulgarian emulating, spit-in-the-face-of-the-reaper, buccaneers of the vertical frontier, matadors of the quick draw, desperados of the bouldering pad, Yee ha! and we don't care 'bout nothin cuz we're climbers! So don't even suggest that what I have to say might be weak because...I'M A CLIMBER, and I'm wild and crazy and reckless, hard-drinking, wild-partyin'...." Add to this..."and don't even suggest that my crappy music be crappy....because I'M A CLIMBER!" Whatever! Go! tough-punk climber-guys, Go! Show us how it's done!

Grandpa's depression??? No it ain't. It ain't even technically a recession. It's an economic slowdown and a bear market. If you've been alive and alert for any significant length of time, you'd have seen several of these trends come and go for various reasons which were in great need of correction anyway. The last big one was the so-called dot.com fiasco a few years ago. You can be pessimistic, but the modern economy always bounces back and there's money to be made on both the down and up swings. Run and hide!!!!!

By your own standards, it looks as if you've been paid off. If you had any true convictions, you'd have sent the money back in protest with your "payoff" commentary. So, I hope you liked the money, but don't expect anyone to take your Bush rants seriously....not that they ever did. And you know what that makes you?????? Nothin' more than a green-striped sock-monkey!

I would assume that this is a group of the Mounties who often use the lower Nisqually for their crevasse rescue practices. Experienced instructors? That's a whole seperate issue!

Dude...you are a victim of an extra-long rope. I first climbed it back in the day when the 45 meter Goldline was in vogue and numerous times later with a 50 and 65 modern rope. You belay near the top of the second crack pitch where you can slot lots of crap in the crack, tie off a tiny bush (if it's still there)and even tie off some nearyby chicken heads. Your squealing girlfriends then come up, anchor, and then it's a relatively short climb (5.2?) over a little roof on monster chicken heads and you're on top. Wowza! Clever folk have someone in the party carry a little daypack with the sweaters and water in it (and headlamps just in case you get trapped behind a cadre of slow-sloggin wankers, which is very common on this route.) You were lucky with your late start...being the first on the wall early in the morning is ideal.

Check out this chica: That ain't "Dumpster Muffin", it's Carrot-Top!

And then there was the time the Mountaineers sent a "rescue party" for me as I sat on a ledge having a snack after soloing a little alpine ridge. When these hefty bumblers finally reached me, they told me that I was in good hands now and they were going to help me down. I packed up and continued climbing. Another time, I was soloing rock routes at Castle Rock or Peshastin or one of those places and noticed a group of Mounties having a conference. When I reached the ground, they sent a spokesman over to me wearing a helmet with a red cross on the front. "I'm the chairman of the Mountaineer's First Aid Committee and for a moment there, I thought we were going to get a little practice!" Whatever! I've also had Mountaineers tell me that I'm a "bad example" for climbing unroped on "Spire Rock" in Tacoma.