sweatinoutliquor

#2 seems to work better... It's all about having good geometry... With the Trimble I use, I can have 6 satellites locked, but an unacceptable level of precision. Usually that happens when a bunch of them are really close together, or they occur in a straight line across the skyplot.

Very cool website gslater! The alminac I downloaded there was for Corvallis, so right around 45 North. I do a fair amount of work in the forest with a Trimble unit, and although I generally can observe a N face apect affect, it's likely confounded with the high multipath environment of closed canopy forests. I still think that there may be an affect on satellite geometry because the available satellites may only occur higher on the horizon, but as you say, this may be hard to quantify and possibly insignificant.

I guess this qualifies as a bit of thread drift: I have heard that the GPSmap garmins work a bit better, although I have never used one myself. To answer you question (tell me if I'm wrong cause it sounds like you are pretty educated on the subject! ) regarding aspect: Satellite trajectories don't tend to pass over the north pole, which when you examine a skyplot of their trajectories, excludes a big patch of sky, generally facing to the north of your position. Here is a skyplot showing satellite trajectories from a recent planning alminac I downloaded: Notice that just north of the center position there is a big gap in satellite coverage. If you are on a north facing slope, even if it's only 30 degrees, the mountain or hill masks most of the skyline to the south, and somewhat to the east and west. That means that in general, you will have fewer satellites available. Again, please let me know if that doesn't seem right cause I'm just going off some stuff I've read. Sorry to the original poster for thread drift... Hopefully your original question has at least been partially addressed!

Garmins are weird... For example, if you are trying to navigate to a waypoint and you lose satelite signal, it won't tell you that you have lost your signal until 30 seconds have passed, rather, it just happily contines to point you in the wrong direction. Also, garmins don't have the capacity to reject satellite signals with low signal to noise ratios (SNR), high dilution of precision (DOP) or high multipath. What that means that regardless of the quality of a satelite signal or how many things it reflects off of before reaching your unit, the garmin will try to use it. Sometimes that means that although it's telling you that you have a position, the actual quality of that position can be highly questionable. Also, the way that it predicts you position's accuracy is somewhat questionable. That being said, the Garmins have their place. For example, if you are above treeline and not on a north facing aspect, you position accuracy can be as little as 10 feet (and that's real!). That's why I think they are very useful for mountaineering. With enough satellites you can even get really accurate elevation readings! But, once you get below treeline, be careful using them to navigate. You may find that your navigation arrow jumps around as satellite signals are gained and lost. Anyway, my advice is to get a garmin (they are the cheapest and most user friendly), but just take it out and mess around with it under a variety of conditions. Also, if possible, try not to rely just on it as a navigation tool because the map and compass really works good, especially if visibility is good.

I think he and whatever other avitars he posts under should totally have their shit banned, and I'm glad you did. I just wish it was a most spectacular, wrath of god style, banning with lightning and thunder and stuff.

Not that I agree with the idea of climbing this weekend, but wouldn't stomping over the snow cave(s) be a good thing?

Weekend... A SAR is a highly coordinated effort including teams on the ground, and in this case, likely air support. They know almost exactly where their teams are at most times, althogh keeping track can be difficult. Now, let's say you and a buddy go climb the mountain and are on your way down: how are they going to be able to distinguish between you and what could be members of the missing climbers group? They have to check, and doing so takes them away from their job. If the only people on that mountain were either the searchers, or the missing climbers, it makes things a lot easier for everyone. That way if they see a couple of climbers that aren't where any documented search parties are located, there may be a good chance they are the missing climbers.

Kauli So far it seems as though some of the most up to date and (believe it or not) accurate information comes from people on this forum. For news clips try KATU News . I hope that you understand that there are many people in other websites that are discussing this effort who may not know as much about the situation as those on this forum (which includes some members of the rescue teams). When news arrives, I would bet that someone here posts information within an hour. The weather appears to be clearing up from the horrible mess that it's been this week, and personally I think we are going to hear good news this weekend.

Yup they work great (I use a garmin RINO 120) Advantages: build in 2 way radio works great as a safety net: I mark waypoints before trips using software, during trips at locations such as where I parked, gear stashes, etc. I really only use it as a backup though. Sometimes they aren't very reliable, and you really need to know how it works to know when it's playing games with you. Disadvantages: It's heavy enough that I don't bring it lot's of times, just because I don't use it. I thought the radio thing was going to be priceless, but honestly, I just don't really use that function. If I had to do it again, I would get one of those garmin geko things. They weigh nothing, fit in your pocket, and have basically the same GPS functionality as my garmin. Anyway, search this forum or the gear critic forum to find pages of discussion on this stuff

My vote is for St. Helens in April or May... Go when there is still snow... Rent crampons and and ice axe (but don't spend more than 10 bucks a day for both... Usually they are pretty cheap, at least where I'm coming from). Go when it's a cold night and the snow is firm. The climb/hike to the top is easy, but give you plenty of time to shread a pair of pant's trying to figure out how those pointy things on your feet work. Read about how to self arrest, then practice the techniques with your crampons off on a short slope that doesn't runout into rocks or other danger. Maybe try to glissade down if the conditions are good, but again, take your crampons off before you do so. The view from the top is something you aren't going to find anywhere else, but don't go too close to the edge as it could be corniced!

I wasn't giving you a hard time about it... Sorry to dredge up... I just thought it was funny to hear that come from you because you are the only one I know who has braved that route in conditions that weren't as ideal as those found in winter (and I still think you are crazy for it, but give you tons of credit for the accomplishment)! I totally agree that winter is the ONLY time of the year for this trip. I posted the link partly to indicate how much more difficult and inappropriate the conditions are at other times of the year. I would happily remove my link if you or anyone else thinks it's inappropriate at this time.

That's right Letsroll, this is a WINTER climb!!!

That pic had me wondering how they could be 4 and look so pretty and new... Guess I should read more before I get fired up. Sparvious or whatever his name is needs to upgrade his boots... His are probably even more thrashed (he basically holds them together with laces and tape, but they still work good), so if he doesn't chime in maybe PM him!

Must... Resist... Urge... to... buy...

Red Box is about the extent of the above image, Cooper spur is in green, Elliot headwall is in the pink circle, sorta cant see it's whole extent in the photo, Sunshine route/Elliot Glacier route is about where the dark blue line goes, though it changes depending on the season and the difficulty with crossing the bergschrund. Actual north face gullies are in light blue, both of which are popular (althogh seldom climbed due to difficulty, and a short season when conditions are really good)... They don't have their own names other than left gully or right gully I believe. Can't see zigzag in this photo, as it's probably about perfectly on the opposite side of the mountain. Difficulty with the cooper spur is that it tends to pitch towards those cliffs in the lower left of the photo. A slab avalanche would probably head in exactly that direction, making that route particularly dangerous in these conditions. Edited for grammar

Thanks for posting that Phil, I was just thinking of doing so...

Related to the skibowl idea... Try cruising up the mirror lake trail towards Tom, Dick, and Harry Mtn. Seems to be a pretty mellow skin in, doesn't put you heading up ski slopes, but gives you access to some pretty great views and mellow rides down. The snowpark is on the right side when you are heading up to Gov. camp. Usually their are snowshoe folks that have a trail into the lake, which is a good start up.

Detail of the N face Gullies, with less snow than what's up there now.

please don't be the vern I know...

I know the guys up there can't read this right now, but I bet if you could you'd feel stronger knowing how many people out there are thinking of you and praying for your safe return. Here's to the folks from PMR, Crag Rats, and whoever else is going up there. Good luck, be safe, and know that there are a lot of people out there that appreciate what you do.

Sweet pics guys, keep 'em coming. My stoke needs stoking.

I've missed this website.

Had to come out of retirement to give you guys a

Good work!

Nice tip Jason. Also useful for the really windy days when tossing a rope means it drifts 40 feet to the left and gets stuck on something.