JosephH

Off, don't know you and haven't climbed with you, but I've certainly met exceptions to the rule, from what I hear on ST it sounds like you're one of them if, as you claim, aren't a natural or have no particular instinct for climbing. I've also run across some folks who aren't necessarily 'natural' climbers, but who do have an extremely honed gift for self-preservation that helps compensate when things go bad.

Trust me, we didn't call them the "Swivel of Death" for nothing...

Dad learned to fly in bi-planes in classes where only 2/3s to 3/4s of any class lived to graduate. He then flew single engine fighters where there weren't a lot of options when things went wrong and went on to be a test pilot at what's now Cape Canaveral. You're right, good military and commercial pilots are elitist and they don't hold a very high regard for pilots who aren't 'naturals' - principally because they've proven over the decades that while fine when nothing is going wrong - they general respond poorly when things go south. That's been my same experience with climbers over 35 years of climbing. I have no elitism my climbing, and certainly none about my climbs, none of which I would consider "test-pieces". You're more than welcome to get on them yourself, however, I'm sure you'd find them all trivial.

I don't believe anyone considers either route to be a sport climb. EBGBs was bolted ground up and considered old school bolted trad; don't know the history of Rock Warrior, but am familar with it having been on Sandstone Samuri. Making simple, obvious placements on well-defined crack climbs is not a particularly big deal, especially when climbing well under your limit. But the real deal with any significant trad climbing at or near your limit is the emotional control involved in dealing with knowing there isn't going to be a next clip unless you provide one, or in the case of old-school bolted trad, knowing the next one is a long way out. It's the emotional discipline and risks involved with the unknown - whether internal or external - that are what makes trad climbing so much more committing than sport climbing. You can certainly point out the exceptions - and I'll grant you there are a lot of them on a crag-by-crag basis - but again, the sport/trad delta says it all. I would also say, sport or trad, that a lack of experience with, and unwillingness / hestitancy towards, taking long[er] falls is also part of the issue overall and something folks don't get much in the way of experience with in gyms or on most sport climbs.

No doubt there are all sort of people who, not really having any natural talent or gift for it, tough it out and become ok climbers anyway. My Dad is a retired 747 pilot, he used to say the same thing about pilots, though he would always add you really don't want them flying the plane you're on.

That lack of horsepower is obviously why you don't climb trad at the same level you sport climb.

I'd disagree with the first statement other than pure crack climbs, but even there by and large you're talking about climbing trad climbs under your ['sport'] limit. The fact that the overwhelming majority of climbers here and on every other climbing forum talk about the delta between their 'sport' and 'trad' rating pretty much confirms the contrary.

The onsight part, but then I walk away before I take that many falls to do a move.

I agree, but then I've never thought all that much of splitter and predominantly crack climbing - pretty much all 'muscle' and no 'puzzle'.

That is essentially meaningless babble UNLESS you walk away from any project you ever fall from, never to attempt it again. Not at all, it simply means you don't dog a line - either you're capable of working out the line and moves while climbing or your aren't - you either have to weight the rope to get up the route or you don't.

Trad means "Traditional" Joseph. It has nothing to do with hang dogging. IMO... I understand Kevin, but in this case you're wrong. That is exactly what 'climbing' meant before the advent of sport and what 'trad climbing' still means despite the current confused morphing involved with sprad climbing and redpoints-on-gear. Now, the folks who brought us 'adventure climbing' certainly have the requisite majority to hijack the term 'trad climbing' to mean what they do, but it would be a bit more honest to just acknowledge that's what's going on.

Don't forget, that insanity goes free - but not in this weather...

For me, bolts and dogging are two seperate issues with bolting being about access and dogging being about FA skills. Hanging is about problem solving, it's essentially a form of aerial bouldering where the rope serves to incrementally and repeatedly bring the ground up under you again and again so you can 'work' the moves - you're bouldering each crux section of the climb before moving on while occasionally starting the stack of moves from the bottom. Incrementally 'working' a climb is the opposite of what you experience in a voluntarily enforced (ethic) or involuntarily enforced (deep water solo / steep TR) situation were there are only two options - either figure out the moves while climbing or fall. And that [dynamic] puzzle aspect of climbing - figuring out both the route and the moves 'on the fly' - which is what I personally value in climbing. The practical benefits of developing your 'on the fly' skills come into play trad climbing when you are runout with no, or only highly technical or marginal, placements and no place to hang to 'work' the line or the moves - particularly during onsight trad FAs. You can definitely compensate for that to some degree with superb physical condition and endurance, but generally only when climbing significantly under your limit. The emotional aspects of trying to figure out a line or moves or technical placements while runout tends to get quite sharp as you approach your limit. I don't "work" climbs specifically because I do groundup, onsight, trad FAs (which means no hanging) and I'm frankly not emotionally capable of switching modes from one to the other on a highly technical and dangerous line. I personally need the consistent 'ethic' in order to do trad FAs in the style that makes them worth doing for me. There is also the issue of what a 'trad FA' even means these days. A lot of 'trad' FAs these days are actually put up with sport / siege tactics. I don't consider them trad FAs, but rather 'sprad FAs' or redpoints-on-gear. Forgive me for clinging to old notion a trad FA still means either FA - free or with a couple of points of aid - or an FFA with no aid - but neither with any hanging and 'working' the line. In the end, the essence of 'trad climbing' was about the absence of hanging, not the absence of bolts - you're either climbing, falling, or being lowered, but never dogging the line. As for bolts, I have no problem saying I'm not elitist - I'm just completely selfish and utterly misanthropic. We started climbing in part to escape the suburban hordes, and in the pre-gyms era, trad climbing was a ruthless barrier-to-entry that filtered out folks who were just into risk-free entertainment and socializing. We knew all along exactly what risk-free, climbing for entertainment would mean - a "build it and they will come" throwing open of the gates. The whole notion of that is succinctly summed up by the fact that only in today's world could two words representing the best of what we do be twisted and perverted into a reverse oxymoron - 'adventure climbing'.

Hard call now that they fixed the DAS I basically have a Compressor for no hood and two Marmot Photons (no longer made) for when I want a hood. These days, for the money, I'd go for a two Compressors - one with hood, one without. That said, the hooded compressor comes in at 526gm and the DAS at 737gm, so I'm guessing the new DAS is now the warmer of the choices.

The MtnHW Compressor is a fabulous piece of clothing in every respect. Love mine.

I just emailed Bill Forrest with your questions and a link, will let you know what he says or maybe he'll post up himself...

Have you lost your fucking mind? You asked, I was just answering and to paraphrase an unindicted traitor: You don't fight for the democracy you want, you fight for the democracy you have...

Well come on all of you big strong men, Uncle Sam needs your help again, he got himself in a terrible jam, way over yonder in Iraq and Afghan, put down your books and pick up a gun, we're gunna have a whole lotta fun. CHORUS and its 1,2,3 what are we fightin for? Don't ask me i don't give a dam, the next stop is Iraq and Afghan, and its 5,6,7 open up the pearly gates. Well there aint no time to wonder why...WHOPEE we're all gunna die. CHORUS Now come on generals lets move fast, your big chance is here at last. Nite you go out and get those ragheads cuz the only good Muslim is one thats dead, you know that peace can only be won, when you blow em all to kingdom come.

Having HIV on a list like that is laughable, if public health is the issue then it's extremely resistant TB you want to put money and resources into stopping, not HIV.

It's a fun place. They cloned six original beautiful blonde women into about 150k of them today, so everytime you turn a corner, there 'she' is again and again and again. You also get to see 'her' at every age from infant to aged all in the same day.

So says Pete 'PTPP' Zabrok - it's his (but he helped Chongo with his book). And I suppose a Lockerian "yer all gonna die...!" is in order here... Quiz: How many locking carabiners are involved with this system?

I use the Eddy for roped-solo free climbing, but I use an unmodded grigri for solo aid.

That's what Christians say anyway. Too bad most of them don't act accordingly. Beat me to it. What is a hoot. Unconditional in all those oh so conditional ways.