JosephH

No doubt there are all sort of people who, not really having any natural talent or gift for it, tough it out and become ok climbers anyway. My Dad is a retired 747 pilot, he used to say the same thing about pilots, though he would always add you really don't want them flying the plane you're on.

That lack of horsepower is obviously why you don't climb trad at the same level you sport climb.

I'd disagree with the first statement other than pure crack climbs, but even there by and large you're talking about climbing trad climbs under your ['sport'] limit. The fact that the overwhelming majority of climbers here and on every other climbing forum talk about the delta between their 'sport' and 'trad' rating pretty much confirms the contrary.

The onsight part, but then I walk away before I take that many falls to do a move.

I agree, but then I've never thought all that much of splitter and predominantly crack climbing - pretty much all 'muscle' and no 'puzzle'.

That is essentially meaningless babble UNLESS you walk away from any project you ever fall from, never to attempt it again. Not at all, it simply means you don't dog a line - either you're capable of working out the line and moves while climbing or your aren't - you either have to weight the rope to get up the route or you don't.

Trad means "Traditional" Joseph. It has nothing to do with hang dogging. IMO... I understand Kevin, but in this case you're wrong. That is exactly what 'climbing' meant before the advent of sport and what 'trad climbing' still means despite the current confused morphing involved with sprad climbing and redpoints-on-gear. Now, the folks who brought us 'adventure climbing' certainly have the requisite majority to hijack the term 'trad climbing' to mean what they do, but it would be a bit more honest to just acknowledge that's what's going on.

Don't forget, that insanity goes free - but not in this weather...

For me, bolts and dogging are two seperate issues with bolting being about access and dogging being about FA skills. Hanging is about problem solving, it's essentially a form of aerial bouldering where the rope serves to incrementally and repeatedly bring the ground up under you again and again so you can 'work' the moves - you're bouldering each crux section of the climb before moving on while occasionally starting the stack of moves from the bottom. Incrementally 'working' a climb is the opposite of what you experience in a voluntarily enforced (ethic) or involuntarily enforced (deep water solo / steep TR) situation were there are only two options - either figure out the moves while climbing or fall. And that [dynamic] puzzle aspect of climbing - figuring out both the route and the moves 'on the fly' - which is what I personally value in climbing. The practical benefits of developing your 'on the fly' skills come into play trad climbing when you are runout with no, or only highly technical or marginal, placements and no place to hang to 'work' the line or the moves - particularly during onsight trad FAs. You can definitely compensate for that to some degree with superb physical condition and endurance, but generally only when climbing significantly under your limit. The emotional aspects of trying to figure out a line or moves or technical placements while runout tends to get quite sharp as you approach your limit. I don't "work" climbs specifically because I do groundup, onsight, trad FAs (which means no hanging) and I'm frankly not emotionally capable of switching modes from one to the other on a highly technical and dangerous line. I personally need the consistent 'ethic' in order to do trad FAs in the style that makes them worth doing for me. There is also the issue of what a 'trad FA' even means these days. A lot of 'trad' FAs these days are actually put up with sport / siege tactics. I don't consider them trad FAs, but rather 'sprad FAs' or redpoints-on-gear. Forgive me for clinging to old notion a trad FA still means either FA - free or with a couple of points of aid - or an FFA with no aid - but neither with any hanging and 'working' the line. In the end, the essence of 'trad climbing' was about the absence of hanging, not the absence of bolts - you're either climbing, falling, or being lowered, but never dogging the line. As for bolts, I have no problem saying I'm not elitist - I'm just completely selfish and utterly misanthropic. We started climbing in part to escape the suburban hordes, and in the pre-gyms era, trad climbing was a ruthless barrier-to-entry that filtered out folks who were just into risk-free entertainment and socializing. We knew all along exactly what risk-free, climbing for entertainment would mean - a "build it and they will come" throwing open of the gates. The whole notion of that is succinctly summed up by the fact that only in today's world could two words representing the best of what we do be twisted and perverted into a reverse oxymoron - 'adventure climbing'.

Hard call now that they fixed the DAS I basically have a Compressor for no hood and two Marmot Photons (no longer made) for when I want a hood. These days, for the money, I'd go for a two Compressors - one with hood, one without. That said, the hooded compressor comes in at 526gm and the DAS at 737gm, so I'm guessing the new DAS is now the warmer of the choices.

The MtnHW Compressor is a fabulous piece of clothing in every respect. Love mine.

I just emailed Bill Forrest with your questions and a link, will let you know what he says or maybe he'll post up himself...

Have you lost your fucking mind? You asked, I was just answering and to paraphrase an unindicted traitor: You don't fight for the democracy you want, you fight for the democracy you have...

Well come on all of you big strong men, Uncle Sam needs your help again, he got himself in a terrible jam, way over yonder in Iraq and Afghan, put down your books and pick up a gun, we're gunna have a whole lotta fun. CHORUS and its 1,2,3 what are we fightin for? Don't ask me i don't give a dam, the next stop is Iraq and Afghan, and its 5,6,7 open up the pearly gates. Well there aint no time to wonder why...WHOPEE we're all gunna die. CHORUS Now come on generals lets move fast, your big chance is here at last. Nite you go out and get those ragheads cuz the only good Muslim is one thats dead, you know that peace can only be won, when you blow em all to kingdom come.

Having HIV on a list like that is laughable, if public health is the issue then it's extremely resistant TB you want to put money and resources into stopping, not HIV.

It's a fun place. They cloned six original beautiful blonde women into about 150k of them today, so everytime you turn a corner, there 'she' is again and again and again. You also get to see 'her' at every age from infant to aged all in the same day.

So says Pete 'PTPP' Zabrok - it's his (but he helped Chongo with his book). And I suppose a Lockerian "yer all gonna die...!" is in order here... Quiz: How many locking carabiners are involved with this system?

I use the Eddy for roped-solo free climbing, but I use an unmodded grigri for solo aid.

That's what Christians say anyway. Too bad most of them don't act accordingly. Beat me to it. What is a hoot. Unconditional in all those oh so conditional ways.

To be honest, I don't find Lee Atwater, Karl Rove, Glenn Beck, or Rush Limbaugh's tactics of manipulating and inciting the righteous indignation of the far / religious right on racial, religious, and social issues here in the U.S. to be any different than what's been done to radicalize disenfranchised elements of Muslim societies. I also suspect the historical course of U.S. TV evanglism and the strategies which led to the rise of our own religious right have not been lost on the eyes and ears of radical Imams and madrasas in Saudi Arabia and across the MidEast. Hard to say who is more dangerous - Glenn Beck or any number of radical Imams. I do know which has the bigger audience, though.

Ah, sandstone, now you're talking. That almost looks it's been transported from back home in SoIll or W. Ky.

Of course, there's nothing dangerous about American christian fundamentalists.

My own opinion has always been that Forrest Titons are the logical predecessors of tricams.