JosephH

I've never heard of such an event either. And given who got there first I definitely don't mind sharing Beacon with the falcons. Climbing without them (or bears) about and around wouldn't be nearly as interesting. I'm available if the biologists need any assistance out there and can be available during the week with a bit of notice.

Probably would just make the call for either free solo or roped solo and act accordingly as opposed to trying to go into some sort of mixed mode. In free solo mode I make myself safe by staying calm, focused, and deliberate. I'd suggest you do some roped soloing and digest that for awhile before doing even easy free solos and ease your way into total self-reliance.

If I were starting out all over again now I'd get: One full set of comparable Metolius or Alien cams All four Hybrid Aliens Brass and aluminum HB offset stoppers (these are the absolute best) One set of Metolius Curves or Old DMM Wallnuts (fatter than the new ones) One Set of Ball nuts

Jake and Chuck, Either of you guys climb with Jim Tangen-Foster over in Moscow, he was over that way for years?

rbw1966, You are a badass...! Nomad, jump on that offer - you're unlikely to get another...

This thread is drifting perilously close to drying up... So let's guess...: How many "climbers" are there today in the US and in the world? How many fewer "climbers" would there be if there weren't bolt ladders (safe climbs done only with draws) up all over? How many fewer "climbers" would there be if climbing couldn't be subdued into being "safe"? How many fewer access issues would there be if climbing hadn't become "safe"? You want to talk brass tacks about bolting? The whole point of climbing was escaping the crowds, learning new skills (pro), and learning how to manage risk. Now the suburban hordes and their associated access problems have been allowed into the game by one, and only one, mechanism - bolting, with its attending elimination of risk (Verdon not withstanding). Ninety percent of these "climbers" are simply looking to replicate their gym experience outside and that is the "gold" standard for them; that's why places like x38 are pretty much just outdoor climbing gyms. And most of the bolted climbs today aren't like Verdon, they are "bolt ladders" with an embarassing short interval between bolts designed to quarantee the elimination of risk. And somehow clipping a line of bolts has become "leading" as if "clipping" had mysteriously acquired a "skill" status higher than a base instinct or changing channels with a remote. "Safe" climbing now appears to have become close to a right or entitlement - and when you come down to it most of these "climbers" are either incapable of or simply not interested in assuming the level of personal responsibility it takes to "make" your own safety on a route (placing pro). They want to know a climb is safe before they leave the ground, they don't want to have to "make" it safe. Surfers are lucky - you can't bolt waves. They've preserved respect for their heritage and the past because going out and surfing today is just as dangerous as it was 40 years ago. Go out tommorrow and attempt to ride big waves over a shallow reef and you take your life in your hands same as it ever was - and you and the man or woman on the board next to you in the line up know exactly what kind of skill and courage it takes to drop in on the next big wave...

I suspect that anything qualifying as an "interesting" line up any part of that rock would be a semi-horror fest from a quality of rock perspective. Be careful what you hammer or nail up there, you might bring the whole thing down if you pull the wrong block. I'd be happy to go out to Beacon with you if you want to do some trad or there are lots of great routes there for roped soloing...

Of particular note to trad climbing ethics conversations in various other threads:

Congrats to all, I'm glad to hear about Dishman getting a little respect after all that abuse. It looks to be a nice little climbing area. My wife is from Spokane and the next time we're through the area I'm definitely going to stop by and give it a whirl. Again, good job all!

Karsten and I were out yesterday and Karsten spotted one of the cubs playing and sunning along the tracks at their RR crossing about a 100 yards east of the SE corner. The cubs were sticking pretty close to Mama last time. This one seemed pretty happy to just be hanging out sunning itself (until a train came along - then he scampered back down by the little lake...

If you follow this advice you'll never move your trad climbing skills along, falling is part of leading trad. Trad was never meant to be a risk free activity and learning to fall intelligently on lead is part of the game. Falling on lead falls into two categories - intentional and unanticipated. "Intentional" you say? First, to be honest, I believe most climbers only climb to their physical limit a couple of times in a lifetime and then usually under threat of death; the rest of the time, even though you tell yourself you're falling, you're really jumping off that rock from the emotional stress. By "intentional" I mean you you know you're coming off; so what then? Well, you should have a pretty good idea of the rock below you at that point as in, hey, you just climbed up it, so "intentional" fall scenarios go like this: The happiest scenario is you were climbing an overhanging wall or roof and you are a ways off the ground so just cut loose and enjoy the ride - you aren't going to hit anything. The second happiest scenario is you're climbing a long smooth vertical wall; stepping back, push off, and turn a bit sideways (will happen by instinct) and take a ride that you will only enjoy if you've done it a lot of times. [The scenarios start getting a little bit less happy at this point...] You're climbing more uneven ground and so now planning for, and anticipating, falling has to become an integrated aspect of placing protection and climbing past it. Protection is only that if it can do its job - every piece should be placed understanding the fall potential, both of falling above it and the fall if it pulls. These "fall potentials" should be analyzed and understood as you climb as they dictate the risks and decisions associated with climbing on, downclimbing[, or jumping] at any given point. This shouldn't be a preoccupation or obsession or constant negative noise in your head - it should just be a normal, integrated part of knowing your situation as you climb and place pro. Once you place a piece of protection you should have a pretty good idea of the risks associated with climbing past it and falling. Right up front that should free you to climb and push your limits, or cause you to consider what you are doing more carefully and either pushing on knowing a fall is not an acceptable outcome or backing down. No one can say "how to fall" in general, beyond push off and try not to hit anything - the important idea is have all the main issues relative to how bad a fall it might be figured out before you start up any given section of a pitch. Things like: how far is it likely to be to the next good piece of pro (how long of a potential fall), what's the quality of placement of the piece I just placed (how much of a fall can I take), what happens if this piece pops (how long a fall then and how likely is it my pro will zipper), what's the nature of any likely fall (ledges, protrusions, straight drop, swing down around a corner, overhanging, etc.). You should always be thinking ahead and weighing your options as you move beyond a placement. But once you decide to go - go - don't be second guessing yourself, it won't help. Make your decision, stay calm, and go. "Unanticipated" falls are usually, but not always, caused by a hold breaking on you that you didn't expect. This generally happens fast, without warning, and there is seldom anything you can do about it. I had this happen several weeks ago after testing every other piece of rock around the next move on a new route I grabbed the one that [i thought] needed no checking and the whole top of that rock came out in mid move like it was greased and I was off before I could do, say, or think anything. Try to avoid these by rapping on suspect holds and testing them. But every now and then you just get caught and there isn't much you can do about it. The other category of "unanticipated" falls that happens is being hit by something and again, there isn't much you can do about it beside hope you don't get hurt bad and can get back to business or bail. The only place where I personally buy into "don't fall" if humanly possible is when slab climbing - such falls are typically not happy and you can get pretty beat up in the process. Lots of advice in the forums on how to take such slab falls, but none of the options (sitting down, try to slide, run for it, etc.) are particularly happy. As everyone else has said, staying calm and keeping your wits about you so you can think clearly is the best and safest advice...

SpecialEd and MattP, I agree that the gear and gearhandling are a far, far secondary consideration to how you handle yourself on a climb. It's definitely not about the hardware - it's about confidence, creativity, judgement, and physical capability and how well you leverage them in any given situation. Keeping it together and staying smart can save your ass even with bad gear, but the best gear (no matter how it's organized) isn't going save you if you lose it and start making bad calls. I also agree with you that there is way too much emphasis and focus on the gear when folks are learning, but there's not as much money to be made selling common sense.

Cpt. No, I'm think I'm actually trying to agree with you relative to the causes of accidents, I just take a different message away from reading about them and that is just about any little thing can kill you under the right circumstances and I just tend to try to eliminate as much randomness as I can. And again, I don't think how you rack or re-rack matters at all (within reason), just that you do it consistently. But I can also easily envision a slow and confused rack exchange causing or contributing to an accident under the right circumstances even if the odds are somewhat long and remote (and again, you might never encounter them). I very much agree with AlpineK that in a lot of alpine settings speed/time/movement counts. And not just relative to having to bivy unexpectedly. On particularly technical routes with a lot of rockfall and avalanche potential, there is also significant risk in just being in any one place too long. Not being anywhere too long starts really counting from an odds/risk perspective. Messner and Haebler have repeatedly commented on this relative to their rationale for traveling fast, light, and often unroped; saying they felt that sometimes the time it took to deal effectively with the rope caused them to linger too long in place, and that they felt every minute in any given random place significantly increased the risk at that spot. In that context, and under the right circumstances, lingering too long in the wrong spot dicking around with a bad rack transfer or anything else could easily be a bad thing. Am I dissecting an accident that hasn't happened? Or has it, and we just don't know about it? Who knows, but again it's not too hard to imagine an unhappy wrong time/place event happening pretty easily for this or any other reason. And, yes, I figure you, and a lot of us writing these notes, have all been lucky bastards more times than we care to admit, and my general point is anything you can do to help "make" your own luck counts - even, or who knows, maybe especially the little things.

Guys, My whole point here is that I happen to disagree with the idea that some things are so trivial that they don't matter and that's the message that then gets conveyed to newbies. I just don't think there is much of anything about what we do that is trivial or to be taken lightly and for the following reason. That is, as the Cpt. is saying, the circumstance of most accidents are unique - i.e. not really that predictable - too unpredictable, in fact, to label or consider any aspect of climbing unimportant, or trivial, or to say it "couldn't possibly cause or contribute to an accident". The problem is that you can get away with saying or believing that 99% of the time (maybe your whole climbing career), but if you happen to get dealt the 1% you get fucked almost every time. E.g.: 10,000 gumbies (not you three guys, I do know you actually do have lots of great experience) can trot up up and down Mt. Hood [or Everest] during the 99% conditions and get away with it (and do), but if the unthinkable 1% event occurs (as it did during the recent epic with the helicopter crash) almost all of those very folks are wholly unprepared to deal - they go up there without the requisite skills to deal with a 1% event gambling that they can get in and out under the 99% conditions. The message I believe you guys are [inadvertantly] conveying that I disagree with is, that based on the fact that all of you [lucky bastards] have managed to randomly rack and roll with strangers without it ever contributing to any problem somehow how means you can safely extrapolate out that it won't be one for someone else. My point is that with racking, or any other aspect of what we do, it all counts exactly because you can't predict or exclude any arbitrary set of failure precursors. Maybe it's because I come from a family of pilots who think risk operates the same way in their world and see the most mundane things bring planes down on a regular basis that I don't treat things like racking as trivial. And in this particular case, I have been way out on the edge with a stranger's rack more times than I can count and recall being pretty fucking unhappy with the situation more than once. On the flip side, I had a partner for years that did everything including racking in sync with me and it still bums me out twenty years later that he lives in Minnesota. As to the specifics of racking, I don't think it makes much difference at all how you rack or re-rack if it works for you, I just happen to believe you should do whatever it is consistently, and really learn it so you don't have to think/talk much about it, and if you have a regular partner you should compromise and get a consistent act between you as well, again - you'll be able to climb harder, faster, and safer in the long run. Life or death - nah (99.9% of the time...)

Cpt. Actually, I wasn't talking about your specific comments at all. With regards to the "life or death" comment, I meant the ability to act alone or in concert with a minimum or conversation and confusion (like wondering where any given piece of pro is when you need it, being able to communicate through the rope when out of sight/hearing, periodically tying into the rope when cleaning aid, and knowing you're both tying knots in the end of the rope when doing long raps in the dark, etc... [or in the case of AlpineK's work, that someone in the crew is actually sharpening the chains he's climbing with - if he's that kind of arborist.]). You, Chuck, and AlpineK make it sound like all the various alpine and rock accidents and deaths that occur each year must all be due to some grand and external causes rather than small mistakes made in a moment of confusion over communication or mishandling gear for whatever reason. The point was: get an act/system together - any system - and stick with it so it becomes second nature. Do it individually and do it collectively and you will move far faster and safer. I don't know anyone that climbs fast, hard, and safe that doesn't have a stable and consistent act together with most aspects of their climbing and particularly their gear handling. [ For awhile here I've actually been convinced guys might have lots of experience on some reasonable routes and maybe even had a few near-death learning experiences of the self-imposed kind one occasionally runs into over years of playing around on the edge - but then again, maybe I was mistaken. After reading these responses one could easily get the idea that maybe you guys actually tend to gumby around a lot and play it so easy and safe that you're never really in the kind of situations, or under the kind of stress, where any of this shit starts making a difference - or maybe all three of you are just naturally lucky guys... ]

I would have to also disagree with the notion that it doesn't matter how you rack gear. If this is a partner you climb with on a regular basis then you should come to some compromise or another if speed, rythmn, and operating in concert mean anything to you. Having your gear act together both for yourself and with a partner means having some system where you both understand what you're doing with a minimum amount of confusion and communication. This may not seem like a big deal, but if you ever get in a truly bad situation, not having your act together individually and collectively can literally become the difference between life and death. Random behavior is not your friend when it comes to honing down your instincts and skills with pro.

You are going to have a very, very good time... As others have said, second as many good routes as humanly possible and pick up a few classic easy leads for yourself -- but try to second as much as possible and really study the pro. It's a great opportunity, at a fabulous place, at a perfect time of year...

Jim O. and I were out yesterday and were up on the "ledge" when I happen to look down at the strip between the tracks and the river and saw 4 black shapes moving east on the single track trail through the grass. At first I thought they were moving fast for cows, then they were the wrong shape for cows, then maybe they were pigs, then wolves, and finally it dawns on me that it's a mother bear and three healthy sized cubs! We watched momma lead them to a point about 100 yards east of the SE corner and then she took them up and over the tracks presumably back up to near where we park on the road on their way back up the mountain. Maybe she brought them down to the river to teach them to fish or something. Another couple was up on the ledge that had returned from the valley and were just lamenting they hadn't seen any bears - only to see them here. Pretty exciting anyway, made our day, and was a real treat.

How about the sheer number of climbers today? Anyone got stats on the number of climbers by year since 1960. What would happen, hypothetically, if gyms and bolts disappeared and all that remained was trad climbing. I suspect we have generated our own problems (just the fact that there is something called the "American Safe Climbing Assoc (ASCA)" is probably highly indicative that we are responsible...).

One of today's headlines in the NYT: U.S. Conceding Rebels Control Regions of Iraq If this keeps up unanswered it will be very analogous to the current situation in Afganistan - We'll be holed up behind the green line and in Saddam's various palaces claiming to control the country while the locals who really control it fight it out amongst themselves on the way to the big 3-way fandango.

Post deleted by JosephH

Zinni is the real deal - he always looked out for his men and was a believer of Gray's approach of getting everyone out from behind their desks - if you don't believe it from him I don't know whose views you would accept. [Cpt., For 500k you might have to stop protecting the Germans and French - maybe even the Japanese - could be the end of the free world as we know it... ]

A lot of years went by before we used any type of belay device. What we typically did do was clip a single biener to the tie-in point of our harness or sling so the gate was up-and-in and then had the rope from the climber go through it and around the waist for the hip belayed. The single biener added friction, but mostly ensured good control over the rope in a fall - and there were lot's and lot's of them...

Cpt. Not particularly, again in a simpler context I would agree, but not Iraq or Afganistan. Your Commander-In-Chief has assidiously avoided formally declaring war on anyone for lots of practical [business-related] reasons. And whatever it is he considers this "conflict" to be, he declared victory on the deck of a carrier some time ago. So, the "war", declared or otherwise, is over and what we now have is an incredibly piss-poor occupation. If you are debating the difference between war and occupation - go for it... And my "trip", high or otherwise, is pretty irrelavant to a discussion of the nature of this or any other conflict. And I suspect if it were possible to get the facts you'd find out that roughly 1/2-2/3's of the IED casualties to-date have been killed with munitions that easily could have been secured in the first two weeks of the conflict had Rumsfield been remotely interested using adequate force levels initially (more like 250-300k) and had actually managed to bribe the Turks with $32 billion so we could have had a northern front to tackle the Arab conclaves immediately. No, I didn't "fail to mention" that at all - we have about a long, long bi-partisan history of installing miserable despots to do our commercial bidding (and usually supress democracy at every turn) only to be bitten on the ass by them later. It's amazing how we don't learn that half the battles we fight are battles of our own making.

Cheney had 7 deferrments of experience in Vietnam - He and Rumsfield are complete posers - Powell knows better and advised against going into Iraq the first time (I'll be stunned if he takes another four years of abuse - but then he knows whoever those fools replace him with would be a disaster...). As far as Iran and Lebanon, our forays in both were disasters one and all - the boneheads kept trying to treat them like Latins and were all but repeatedly, laughed out of the Middle East (Bush Sr.'s CIA and VP experience was mostly in South/Central America). And Panama, please! just like Saddam, our boy turned around and bit us on the ass - set'em up, knock'em down - now that really took putting on the ol' military thinking cap (will we be crowing over Grenada next...). The troops in all cases did great, the political, intelligence, and military leadership in all three were a disaster.