JosephH

Ken, I'm 5'11" and have to be in the 170's to climb 11's and mid-160's to climb 12's or better. Been quite awhile since I was climbing 13's.

I'd take the wall tent, spirits, hooks, ball nuts, and the big bros larger than a #3...

What's your height and weight? For me it's always that or not getting the yardage on routes; but it could also be just wanting it, or even possibly the need of a like minded partner.

Nope - a gray Camry - like you say, maybe next time...

scheissami and anyone else I may have missed at RB. Sorry about that. I just blitzed in and out and was only there from 3:30 to 5:00 when it started to rain.

Turn 55 this summer and I'm way happy any time I can just get back to solid trad 10 - anything past that is work / family dependent. Bill and I do have a couple of hard projects planned for this year somewhat harder than that but we'll just have to see how the year goes. None of what we have planned will likely be in the teens range if he and I get up them.

Yep, one of their maintenance guys, Tom, saw me doing strange things with my Camry and came by to see the commotion. Once he saw the washing machine and engine block sitting by the road he said his crew would come by and grab it in the morning. He said he rappels sometimes and had seen the stuff down there. He then split, but came back about ten minutes later with a security guard and a truck and hauled them off. So kudos to the church guys! Next time some of you folks go out, maybe you could take a plastic bag or two along and hit the odds and ends that are still down there and that would wrap up this batch.

I'll still be going to Rocky around 3 or so - might be a couple of minutes late...

Why don't we call it for 3pm...

I could do Tuesday, either afternoon or evening or both. Maybe go early and winch that shit out of there. Someone have a pickup to haul it away in...?

Givan a lot of your alpine rock sojourns I suspect that's probably a smart idea. I like it all - leading, TR and seconding. When roped soloing seconding is integral to the experience and I like that aspect of it, that you have to do both the leading and the cleaning. But, I can certainly understand when climbing fast and mainly trying to get somewhere, like in an alpine setting, that seconding can become a drag.

The most interesting thing about it is what appears to be the one natural divot at the outer base of the overhang - it seems to have been the inspiration for the whole affair.

Ah, thanks, that's what I thought. Could just as easily have been Broughton or Beacon. Always interesting to see what can insue as folks' personalities adjust to their accomplishments.

There was only a fixed sling on a bolt and Sean did quite well and basically worked the bulk of the route out. He just needs to get the lower moves wired so he has the energy for the upper part. Just curious who did this, I'll ask Gary when I get the chance - thought you guys would know of the top of your head...

Drop straight down from the middle of the fence and you'll be on it.

So who were the authors of the wholly manufactured overhanging route out at RB?

I'm off tomorrow and more than happy to belay...

No matter how many folks do it, or where they do it, or how long they've been doing it - leaving shit up on rock blows. Period. Folks rationalizing it is just another example of group spin and collective denial. In fact, it wobbles between painful and laughable to read the attempts presented here aimed at constructing a broad justification for the practice (and the 'we've already blighted the place with chalk so draws are fine' argument in particular scores extra points...). Kevin scores on this one - taking shit is lame, leaving shit is lame as well and an invitation to weak-minded individuals posing as climbers.

And clipping bolts on short climbs is so much better? I've never quite figured out this one out when the rationale for sport is to not waste time fiddling with gear and just focusing on the physical movement. If that's the case, and in situations where one is as easy to rig as the other, then why not just dispense with the faux pro and do just that - focus on the physical. At what point did clipping a bolt gather such connotations of either skill or boldness? In most cases it is neither and the distinction between clipping pre-placed bolts and top-roping is simply a matter of collective posing - the true disease of climbing...

I have to call BS here, JH. You and I exchanged emails about this project. Tim also contacted you. I saw the emails. My understanding is that he at least tried to set up a meet with you. You're saying that never happened? And I repeatedly asked him to get together with the crew who are the ones that have the beef with him, and from my perspective he did not make any effort in that regard. Instead, he was incredibly cryptic, oblique, secretive, faild to mention things, and was difficult in general to communicate with in every attempt I made to have a conversation with him. It still seems amazing to me that he wouldn't simply ask folks down to Lucky Lab for a beer to give their individual and collective thoughts on the matter. I wasn't in the bolt war with him and it wasn't my routes subject to misinformation - I actully tried to facilitate them reconciling their differences. Effort was made, and not in any open way, he simply tried to pump me for info to complete and 'verify' a project he worked on without a word to anyone. And yeah, he might not have won folks over - I was quite upfront and honest about my personal feelings about all guides. And of course, what makes simply respecting those collectively voiced wishes and not publishing a topo such a non-option? I'm still at a complete loss as to just what, all these years later, could possibly drive him to feel the need to publish this topo other than hubris, ego, and/or financial gain. I personally find it more than just a bit sad. If he wanted to do something for Beacon he could come out and clean old routes and remove a bunch of the funky hardware he still has littering the place. Tim has clearly moved on relative to climbing at Beacon, but is just as cryptic and uncommunicative about his projects and intentions today as everyone I've talked to described him back in the day. Had Tim simply 'moved on' there would be no topo and he wouldn't be exploiting the place this in this way. At best we can only hope he left out the stars.

No problem, and I don't have any desire to make or keep Beacon "secret" - it's a bit too obvious for that. But an armchair guide was never required for the place. As for folks 'wasting their time' exploring Beacon, it takes less than three minutes to traverse the base of the entire south face. How much time could they waste? Pretty much everyone just walks by the center columns giving them the instant no-go decision on the spot. That leaves the SE and SW corners. The SW corner doesn't require much exploring and the lines are obvious. The SE corner holds some adventure, but most of it manageble with an end target in sight. From my perspective, it's just not an instant gratification sort of place and I believe that is the source of some of the tension around it as some of us don't look at the place that way even if it is close to town. [ Note: If people want beta, they should adopt a southface column route and clean it when it opens this year - then they'd have all the beta they need by the time they're done... ]

Are you okay...I mean I hope you are not just blowing some random figure out your ass. Where else would I get a number like that? Where would anyone get a number like that? There are no numbers like that. You can only estimate numbers like that, which is what I did. You think it's wildly off? I don't. On any given day, I'm guessing of the percentage of folks who own a harness and have been climbing in the last year, only 15-20% are prepared to lead trad. That if gyms and sport routes weren't available there would be an overnight collapse in the number of climbers. It goes hand-in-hand with the fact that most are only looking for risk-averse entertainment; climbing which requires them to personally assume risk is not on their radar. The problem with this new majority is the amount of rock that needs to be bolted to support them outside of gyms. My sole concern is insuring Beacon is not thrown under that particular train even if every other rock in a 100 mile radius of PDX is...

I only have one - one - interest, and that's protecting Beacon as a trad climbing area. I couldn't care less who climbs there so long as they respect the character and traditions of the place. I'm not remotely interested in Beacon ever being a safe, fun place to climb - just the contrary, I'm looking for it to stay a serious place to climb. I agree with most of what you say here. But regardless of it's proximity to PDX, keeping the essential character of Beacon intact is my only priority - as opposed to providing entertainment for a risk-averse public. There are no shortage of safe, well-documented, sport areas around - no need to bring Beacon down to that level. Anyone driving down 84 can find Beacon. No guide or topo was ever necessary.. It would be better if there were none at all as far as I'm concerned. Beacon will remain only as 'real' as folks keep it...

The only beta I've used of late was for the descent of Epi. I don't use guidebooks or topos and don't want beta before I climb. So no, I've not been influenced by such things - not sure how you consider magazines in that mix. I have provided a TR on the one route that is overbolted such that it draws endless traffic yet has significant routefinding difficult. The pitches where it can go wrong can do so on terrain that has the potential to get ugly fast. If the route were not bolted in a manner which attracts a large number of folks who could potentially get in trouble I wouldn't have bothered. It is the one preventative I have posted for the sake of preventing rescues. You so miss the mark, by a mile. 'Socialized' is about climbers losing both self-reliance and self-responsibility. Pretty apparent in the number of people who mainly climb in groups. 'Commercialized' is about selling climbing as just another form of risk-free entertainment. 'Homogenized' is more about reducing all climbs to the same risk profile [bolting] to provide that risk-free entertainment for the masses. 'Risk averse' is about gyms and the production of 'safe' routes that together allows 80-85% of today's climbers to identify themselves as climbers. If bolts disappeared tomorrow, those 80-85% would no longer be climbers the next day. Tim still hasn't reconciled the ill-will from his last publishing misadventure. He made no effort to get together with the Beacon crew to resolve those conflicts let alone produce a "master" topo of the place. This topo is the product of pure hubris and driven by ego and money. No doubt he'll be moving down the road to add insult to injury.

Actually, almost all guidebooks present the information I have no interest in and leave out all the info I am - the story of the FA and what was going on with the climbers that led to the route's existence. That may be the case in alpine or on a big wall, but otherwise I disagree. They do provide this service to people incapable or unwilling to providing it for themselves. No, but there's absolutely nothing stopping folks from developing the eye and the skill to simply drop in on a crag, completely ignore who has climbed what, and just jump on whatever catches their eye. No it's not. It has nothing to do with either localism or elistism. It is purely a product of coming up in an area where everything we touched was an FA and a deep desire to not know anything about lines before I get on them. I don't even like knowing a line is a route - in fact, until after the fact I couldn't care less if a line has been climbed or not. I like just walking in, eyeballing lines and jumping on whatever I get obsessed with. Do I epic and retreat sometimes? You bet your ass; again and again, and those are some of the most memorable climbs of all. Every climb I do isn't an FA, but I try to treat every one like it is. Break out a guide book when you hit a new crag and you are instantly passing on the first real opportunity presented to you - cluelessness. You can, but you'll miss out on the essential unknown and adventure available to you. As far as I'm concerned you are quite welcome to the socialized, commercialized, homogenized, and risk-averse climbing many of you seem to prefer.